Is it true that...no one can live up to the level of Christ..
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But the fact is that we are flawed creatures and as such we will make errors in judgement, make mistakes, and these mistakes have ripple effects to the world at large.
Jeff...Again, I think it is only your belief that makes this a fact. Not everyone sees this as a fact. Using the term flawed creatures is a your own judgement. Buddhists might say that we are what we are without the need to judge humanity as flawed creatures. What if we all stopped believing that we are flawed creatures? I imagine that this world would be a kinder, gentler world to live in. You might consider asking yourself, what is my payoff for judging myself as flawed. I think your insight will be rather enlightening!
blessings....Franco
I could ask myself this...but it is a not inline with what the Bible says..so therefore, that way of thinking is incorrect for me.
But the fact is that we are flawed creatures and as such we will make errors in judgement, make mistakes, and these mistakes have ripple effects to the world at large.
Jeff...Again, I think it is only your belief that makes this a fact. Not everyone sees this as a fact. Using the term flawed creatures is a your own judgement. Buddhists might say that we are what we are without the need to judge humanity as flawed creatures. What if we all stopped believing that we are flawed creatures? I imagine that this world would be a kinder, gentler world to live in. You might consider asking yourself, what is my payoff for judging myself as flawed. I think your insight will be rather enlightening!
blessings....Franco
I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree, and it is readily apparent that everyone is flawed. No human is perfect. And I think that if we all started imagining ourselves as perfect creatures then we would simply be deluding ourselves.
Dont' get me wrong--compared to many Christians, I actually hold a very lenient view on humankind. Unlike some Christians, I believe that all humans--even the "unsaved"--are capable of great kindness and decency. So I don't believe all humans to be inherently EVIL--just flawed.
And I do see what you are going for--as we think ourselves, we become. One of my favorite sayings is this:
"Be careful how you view the world: it is like that."
But I am also a realist. So while I recognize the good and noble in many people, I also realize that being good and noble does doesn't mean that one is perfect. It is simply reality, not negativity, to say that we are flawed.
I could ask myself this...but it is a not inline with what the Bible says..so therefore, that way of thinking is incorrect for me.
I don't mean these questions as a put down in any way, even though they may come across to you that way. I wonder if you ever allow yourself the experience of purposely thinking outside the box ( bible )? Would it make you feel like a bad person if you have thoughts that might not be in agreement with the bible? I am sincerely curious...what makes you fearful of using your God given mind to think your own original thoughts.
I could ask myself this...but it is a not inline with what the Bible says..so therefore, that way of thinking is incorrect for me.
I don't mean these questions as a put down in any way, even though they may come across to you that way. I wonder if you ever allow yourself the experience of purposely thinking outside the box ( bible )? Would it make you feel like a bad person if you have thoughts that might not be in agreement with the bible? I am sincerely curious...what makes you fearful of using your God given mind to think your own original thoughts.
blessings...Franco
never thought of it as a put down... personally, Im just a pretty cut and dried individual..I actually type more than i talk..some people are "geared" toward different types of thought..I dont have a thought..then run and go see if it lines up with the Bible, no I dont, but i feel like I have a daily connection with God, If Im talking to God, and setting my thoughts on him and my family and my job..and of course food, I dont really feel a need to "think outside the box".
"Be careful how you view the world: it is like that."
That's my point exactly! Since you view the world as a place with flawed creatures, that's what becomes/is your reality. You go about living your life in a world with flawed creatures.
What if you let go of the flawed judgement, and simply accepted that people are the way they are without judging them? We are exactly as God made us, no? Aren't we taught that God is perfect? If that is true, and I think it is, then God's creatures are also perfect, unless God made a mistake with humans...but then he isn't perfect, eh?
"Be careful how you view the world: it is like that."
That's my point exactly! Since you view the world as a place with flawed creatures, that's what becomes/is your reality. You go about living your life in a world with flawed creatures.
Again, I DO understand your point here. I was raised in a vein of Christianity that is very big on having positive confession, of believing that we have what we say, that as our faith is, so be it unto us. All spiritual truths that I wholeheartedly agree with (with balance, of course.)
But my viewpoint, in this case, does not change what IS. Regardless of what you or I think, the fact is that mankind is flawed, or we would otherwise be living in a utopia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewAgeRedneck
What if you let go of the flawed judgement, and simply accepted that people are the way they are without judging them? We are exactly as God made us, no? Aren't we taught that God is perfect? If that is true, and I think it is, then God's creatures are also perfect, unless God made a mistake with humans...but then he isn't perfect, eh?
blessings....Franco
I don't believe that God made a mistake with humans, but again my beliefs in this area are considered heterodox by orthodoxy. I believe that God intended for Adam and Eve to sin and eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. I believe that God has provided the way for all of mankind to reach communion with Him, through the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ. Some will attain this communion in this life, some will not, and will need purification and punishment in the next life before this can be attained. So we are as God intended us to be for NOW, but how we are now is not the perfection that will be obtained in the new heaven and new earth. So, again to clarify, God did not make a mistake with His creation. He made man perfect, but knew they would sin, and planned the way of escape long before the original sin ever occured. God was, is and has always been in control!
IMO this is absolute nonsense. If Christ was a true teacher, and I believe he was, he would have been delighted to have a student/disciple reach his level or even surpass him.
I'm asking those of you who are bible experts to please bear with me on this. I'm not a bible expert so I don't know where it is written or what his exact words were ( does anyone really know his exact words? ) I remember reading somewhere that Christ made a statement saying essentially, that we could do even greater things than he did. Again, I'm thinking that any true teacher would want his or her students/disciples to reach his or her level and/or go beyond them. What is possibly to be gained by holding oneself above everyone else? Somehow I cannot imagine that Jesus Christ would have such an egotistical attitude. Let us leave such childish beliefs to our political leaders.
blessings....Franco
YES I think Jesus would be happy if we all were more Christlike, and if we all reached ‘His level’ as you call it. I think He would be thrilled if that happened and we all were ‘at His level’. In fact that’s His plan! He will one day make us to be like Him. Not BE Him, but be LIKE Him. We will be perfect, as He is!
What I DON”T think He would be happy about is the fact that someone who claims to be a follower of His, is contemplating whether or not they have ‘reached His level’, ‘out did’ Him or anyone else. That very thought is not Christlike. He taught us to be humble, and that thought is not humble. I DON”T think He would be happy about that at all. Sitting around thinking that one day we might possibly out due Him. That’s not Christlike. It’s not humble.
We are not taught in the Bible to sit around and contemplate if we can out due someone, or reach their level. If anything we are taught the exact OPPOSITE in the bible. The bible tells us over and over to HUMBLE ourselves. Jesus Himself did not think Himself equal with God the Father. Jesus being GOD humbled Himself took on human form and came to die for us. Jesus humbled Himself and washed His disciple’s feet.
Over and over in the bible I see Jesus teach us to be humble (Just see below). So where is it that you think we are told to try and BE Him or out due Him? The very thought of wanting to out due your teacher ITSELF is not even Christlike.
Passage Matthew 18:1-4:
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Psalm 147:6
The LORD sustains the humble but casts the wicked to the ground.
Psalm 149:4
For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation.
Proverbs 3:34
He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.
Jesus was the "Christ" Son of the Living God, this Truth is the rock and foundation of the church
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewAgeRedneck
On another thread Jazzedforhim wrote:
no one can live up to the level of Christ
IMO this is absolute nonsense. If Christ was a true teacher, and I believe he was, he would have been delighted to have a student/disciple reach his level or even surpass him.
I'm asking those of you who are bible experts to please bear with me on this. I'm not a bible expert so I don't know where it is written or what his exact words were ( does anyone really know his exact words? ) I remember reading somewhere that Christ made a statement saying essentially, that we could do even greater things than he did. Again, I'm thinking that any true teacher would want his or her students/disciples to reach his or her level and/or go beyond them. What is possibly to be gained by holding oneself above everyone else? Somehow I cannot imagine that Jesus Christ would have such an egotistical attitude. Let us leave such childish beliefs to our political leaders.
blessings....Franco
Jesus was the Christ ( the anointed one of God) the Christ is a level of obtainment that make you one with God, not God but one with God, You are like the Father in that you say what you hear the Father say, you act like you see the Father act. Jesus was the Christ and he came to set an example so you would know how to have the same relationship with God the Father. All ministry is to reconcile man back to God and Jesus ministry was no different. However his ministry was greater than ours because he gave his life so that we could become joint heir to the kingdom of God. We can obtain christhood if we become like Jesus, we can become God's anointed one with great missions in the Kingdom of God the father. For giving his life for us he became a heir apparent to the earth and all its dominions.
The devil wanted to be greater than God, that's why he got thrown out of Heaven.
So God wasn't omniscient, and didn't foresee this?
Wouldn't Lucifer know God knew his plans and thoughts?
Wasn't a 3rd of heaven being evicted a sign that things weren't going well in paradise?
How come one third of the angels backed up Lucifer, thats a big percentage?
How come we have never heard Lucifer's side of the story?
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Thinking outside the box.
personally, Im just a pretty cut and dried individual..I actually type more than i talk..some people are "geared" toward different types of thought..I dont have a thought..then run and go see if it lines up with the Bible, no I dont, but i feel like I have a daily connection with God, If Im talking to God, and setting my thoughts on him and my family and my job..and of course food
, I dont really feel a need to "think outside the box".
