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Old 09-02-2011, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,534,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
This is speaking of judgement day. do you believe there will be a judgement day and the unrepented will be sent for their punishment?

"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
51 "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
53 "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. then write us down among those who bear witness."
54 And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
57 "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."
58 "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."
59 The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

 
Old 09-02-2011, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,534,058 times
Reputation: 7377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').
It would help if you actually had read the Qur'an and read those ayyats in the content of what is written. the ayyats are not commands, they are sentences in a story or message. You can not understand what they mean unless you know who is being referred to or what is being spoken of.


Quote:
144 Muhammad is no more than an apostle: many Were the apostle that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah. but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
145 Nor can a soul die except by Allah.s leave, the term being fixed as by writing. If any do desire a reward in this life, We shall give it to him; and if any do desire a reward in the Hereafter, We shall give it to him. And swiftly shall We reward those that (serve us with) gratitude.
146 How many of the prophets fought (in Allah.s way), and with them (fought) Large bands of godly men? but they never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah.s way, nor did they weaken (in will) nor give in. And Allah Loves those who are firm and steadfast.
147 All that they said was: "Our Lord! Forgive us our sins and anything We may have done that transgressed our duty: Establish our feet firmly, and help us against those that resist Faith."
148 And Allah gave them a reward in this world, and the excellent reward of the Hereafter. For Allah Loveth those who do good.
149 O ye who believe! If ye obey the Unbelievers, they will drive you back on your heels, and ye will turn back (from Faith) to your own loss.
150 Nay, Allah is your protector, and He is the best of helpers.
151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!
152 Allah did indeed fulfil His promise to you when ye with His permission Were about to annihilate your enemy,-until ye flinched and fell to disputing about the order, and disobeyed it after He brought you in sight (of the booty) which ye covet. Among you are some that hanker after this world and some that desire the Hereafter. Then did He divert you from your foes in order to test you but He forgave you: For Allah is full of grace to those who believe.
153 Behold! ye were climbing up the high ground, without even casting a side glance at any one, and the Messenger in your rear was calling you back. There did Allah give you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for (the booty) that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you. For Allah is well aware of all that ye do.
154 After (the excitement) of the distress, He sent down calm on a band of you overcome with slumber, while another band was stirred to anxiety by their own feelings, Moved by wrong suspicions of Allah.suspicions due to ignorance. They said: "What affair is this of ours?" Say thou: "Indeed, this affair is wholly Allah.s." They hide in their minds what they dare not reveal to thee. They say (to themselves): "If we had had anything to do with this affair, We should not have been in the slaughter here." Say: "Even if you had remained in your homes, those for whom death was decreed would certainly have gone forth to the place of their death"; but (all this was) that Allah might test what is in your breasts and purge what is in your hearts. For Allah knoweth well the secrets of your hearts.
155 Those of you who turned back on the day the two hosts Met,-it was Satan who caused them to fail, because of some (evil) they had done. But Allah Has blotted out (their fault): For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing.
156 O ye who believe! Be not like the Unbelievers, who say of their brethren, when they are travelling through the Earth or engaged in fighting: "If they had stayed with us, they would not have died, or been slain." This that Allah may make it a cause of sighs and regrets in their hearts. It is Allah that gives Life and Death, and Allah sees well all that ye do.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-02-2011 at 10:41 PM..
 
Old 09-02-2011, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,534,058 times
Reputation: 7377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.
Like the others this makes a lot more sense when you know what is being spoken of.

Quote:
69 All who obey Allah and the apostle are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!
70 Such is the bounty from Allah. And sufficient is it that Allah knoweth all.
71 O ye who believe! Take your precautions, and either go forth in parties or go forth all together.
72 There are certainly among you men who would tarry behind: If a misfortune befalls you, they say: "(Allah) did favour us in that we were not present among them."
73 But if good fortune comes to you from Allah, they would be sure to say - as if there had never been Ties of affection between you and them - "Oh! I wish I had been with them; a fine thing should I then have made of it!"
74 Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
75 And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
77 Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah. They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!
 
Old 09-02-2011, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,534,058 times
Reputation: 7377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post
Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
This is part of the message spoken about in the post above.


Quote:
75 And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
77 Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah. They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!
Answering Islam has a knack at taking parts, and insinuate it is the whole and a command to do evil. Do you really believe nearly 2 billion people would follow any religion if it was as violent as answering Islam and other hate sites make Islam appear to be?
 
Old 09-02-2011, 10:57 PM
 
37,553 posts, read 25,268,086 times
Reputation: 5858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This is part of the message spoken about in the post above.
Answering Islam has a knack at taking parts, and insinuate it is the whole and a command to do evil. Do you really believe nearly 2 billion people would follow any religion if it was as violent as answering Islam and other hate sites make Islam appear to be?
Sorry Wood . . . you are an excellent apologist for what you believe . . . but it is NOT Islam as practiced by the majority of Muslims. I fully believe that the vast majority of those 2 billion would do exactly that . . . and have done so repeatedly with fatwas, death threats, demonstrations and violence. I do not accept that you are a typical Muslim.
 
Old 09-02-2011, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,534,058 times
Reputation: 7377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post
Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?
The above 3 ayyats all go together and are part of the same message. Now see what is actually being spoken of and forget about the lies and hidden agendas of the hate sites. You may notice that these ayyats are speaking about the hypocrites and hypocritical behavior.

Quote:
85 Whoever recommends and helps a good cause becomes a partner therein: And whoever recommends and helps an evil cause, shares in its burden: And Allah hath power over all things.
86 When a (courteous) greeting is offered you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous, or (at least) of equal courtesy. Allah takes careful account of all things.
87 Allah. There is no god but He: of a surety He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose word can be truer than Allah.s?
88 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
91 Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.
92 Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.
93 If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.
94 O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation: "Thou art none of a believer!" Coveting the perishable goods of this life: with Allah are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves before, till Allah conferred on you His favours: Therefore carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware of all that ye do.
95 Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-
96 Ranks specially bestowed by Him, and Forgiveness and Mercy. For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
97 When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, they say: "In what (plight) Were ye?" They reply: "Weak and oppressed Were we in the earth." They say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to move yourselves away (From evil)?" Such men will find their abode in Hell,- What an evil refuge! -
98 Except those who are (really) weak and oppressed - men, women, and children - who have no means in their power, nor (a guide-post) to their way.
99 For these, there is hope that Allah will forgive: For Allah doth blot out (sins) and forgive again and again.
100 He who forsakes his home in the cause of Allah, finds in the earth Many a refuge, wide and spacious: Should he die as a refugee from home for Allah and His Messenger, His reward becomes due and sure with Allah. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
101 When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
102 When thou (O Messenger. art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them: When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms: the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.
103 When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah.s praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times.
104 And slacken not in following up the enemy: If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships; but ye have Hope from Allah, while they have none. And Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
105 We have sent down to thee the Book in truth, that thou mightest judge between men, as guided by Allah. so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust;
106 But seek the forgiveness of Allah. for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
107 Contend not on behalf of such as betray their own souls; for Allah loveth not one given to perfidy and crime:
108 They may hide (Their crimes) from men, but they cannot hide (Them) from Allah, seeing that He is in their midst when they plot by night, in words that He cannot approve: And Allah Doth compass round all that they do.
 
Old 09-02-2011, 11:13 PM
Status: "Even better than okay" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
51,364 posts, read 50,627,712 times
Reputation: 60289
Woodrow,

When were the English translations of the Quran from which you quote made? With the "doths" and the "yees" it sounds similar to the late Middle English Bible translations, such as the King James version.

And is there a modern-English translation similar to the NIV Bible?

Just curious.
 
Old 09-02-2011, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,534,058 times
Reputation: 7377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Pean View Post
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Take it in what is meant, not just part of what is being said.


Quote:
32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
34 Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
35 O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye may prosper.
36 As to those who reject Faith,- if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty.
37 Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out therefrom: their penalty will be one that endures.
 
Old 09-02-2011, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,534,058 times
Reputation: 7377
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sorry Wood . . . you are an excellent apologist for what you believe . . . but it is NOT Islam as practiced by the majority of Muslims. I fully believe that the vast majority of those 2 billion would do exactly that . . . and have done so repeatedly with fatwas, death threats, demonstrations and violence. I do not accept that you are a typical Muslim.
I am a lot more typical than what you think. My views are very much in the open and my web sites are seen world wide. I have yet to get any disagreement over what I teach. I do know a few semi prominent scholars and am often addressed as Sheik although I get the label simply because of age.


I also am the administrator on a few Islamic forums, have a few online groups and am often asked to serve as an online scholar. I have a fairly active following on Facebook. I have yet to have any one disagree with my views. I consider myself to be very typical of a Sunni who follows the Hanafi Madhab.

If you have a Facebook account drop in to see me at: Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More

My Facebook ID is Woodrow Fields My photo albums on it are public to all
 
Old 09-03-2011, 06:17 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,717,352 times
Reputation: 1351
Woodrow, I certainly respect your style and patience. I will rarely agree with any of your doctrines and most religious beliefs, but I can respect your style.

I do have a question though, considering you were a former Christian (as I was also). I have a HUGE problem with ANYONE today telling me they heard god speak to them. Generally, most people would consider such people crazy, of course, unless it is their pastor or someone in their church. I extend that doubt to those in the bible who claimed the same thing (like, who was around to hear god telling Abraham to kill his son or telling him he was going to inherit chunks of prime real estate???). Imagine a very devout Christian or Muslim telling you god told them to sacrifice their child. What would you conclude? Why then are we so ready to believe that a character like Abraham actually heard god's voice but the nut-bag next door (no matter how devout he is) needs to be taken away by the guys in white?

Now I ask this because when you really think about it, Islam started the same way, right? A man goes off to meditate and comes back claiming divinity spoke to him. What makes his story more credible than say, Joseph Smith's??? Why do I/we ignore and discard a similar claim of a modern madman claiming the same thing today but accept the same behavior from ages ago as FACTUAL, valid and their "revelations" as "truth" we must recognize?
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