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Old 09-04-2011, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,424,287 times
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Hey, Woodrow,

I agree. I have always had a strong interest in Native Americans. It started, I am embarrassed to say, with the Book of Mormon, which is believed by Mormons to be written by the ancient inhabitants of North and South America. I am embarrassed by it, because it was actually written by early 19th century white man/men with all the lame noble-savage bias that was typical of that period. But, I did feel a special connection to Native Americans because of the Book of Mormon. Also, in Macon, GA, where I grew up, I used to visit Ocmulgee National Monument a lot, which has an old temple mound, funeral mound, and earthlodge. Ocmulgee National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

Then, when I lived in Lawrence, KS, I attended church directly across from the Haskell Indian Nations University, and interacted with some of the students regularly.

I do have a question for you since you mentioned teepees. How well do teepees handle tornadoes? The Native Americans of the Great Plains must have found a way to adapt to the regular tornadoes in the area. What was their "tornado drill" so to speak?
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Old 09-04-2011, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,520,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
Hey, Woodrow,

I agree. I have always had a strong interest in Native Americans. It started, I am embarrassed to say, with the Book of Mormon, which is believed by Mormons to be written by the ancient inhabitants of North and South America. I am embarrassed by it, because it was actually written by early 19th century white man/men with all the lame noble-savage bias that was typical of that period. But, I did feel a special connection to Native Americans because of the Book of Mormon. Also, in Macon, GA, where I grew up, I used to visit Ocmulgee National Monument a lot, which has an old temple mound, funeral mound, and earthlodge. Ocmulgee National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

Then, when I lived in Lawrence, KS, I attended church directly across from the Haskell Indian Nations University, and interacted with some of the students regularly.

I do have a question for you since you mentioned teepees. How well do teepees handle tornadoes? The Native Americans of the Great Plains must have found a way to adapt to the regular tornadoes in the area. What was their "tornado drill" so to speak?
Peace Hueff,

I really doubt there was any major issue for tornadoes among the Plains tribes. Tornadoes almost seem to be "creatures" of habit typically occurring along the same pathways from year to year. Today they seem to be more erratic, I attribute that to changes in the terrain from farming and the building of cities along with paved highways, all of which affect the air currents. It seems that in earlier years tornadoes were more predictable and more likely to occur in specific areas at specific times of the year.

Since the Plains tribes were nomadic and spent different times of the year in different places. I believe they simply bypassed most tornado weather and avoided contact with tornadoes. But even without that I doubt you would get the same level of damage or loss of life if a tornado had hit a Teepee village, you would not have the heavy stuff flying around like shattered glass, cinder blocks, steel beams etc. It is the flying debris that causes the most damage, I doubt there would have been much if any loss of life if a tornado hit a teepee village, just the inconvenience of having to hunt your home down after the storm.

A bit of trivia back in the 1970s I was a boy Scout leader down in Texas. I was with a group of kids on a weekend campout and in the middle of the first night we got a direct hit by an F2 twister. Only damage was a bunch of soaking wet kids and having to find our tents come daylight. No injuries and very little damage to the tents, just the inconvenience of having to find them. I do not recall any of us losing as much as a single item. (over 75% of tornadoes are F2 or lower)

To add to the above I am not aware of any legends or stories about any major destruction from tornadoes, being handed down among the Plains people. Plenty about blizzards, but I have not found any about tornadoes.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-04-2011 at 08:59 AM..
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Old 09-04-2011, 09:07 AM
 
3,579 posts, read 2,648,056 times
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Originally Posted by Stavemaster View Post
I'll go out on a limb here and defending by assuming they probably set it up the way they did to provide context as to what was going on in the rest of the world at a particular time. Whether or not you believe in Jesus's divinity or even his existence, there are plenty of people who did over the last 2000 years and their belief has, for better or worse, shaped a lot of the world's history. I don't think it's inappropriate.
Of course, all of that is irrelevant to the fact that the title of the mural is "Indian timeline".
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Old 09-04-2011, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Bellingham, WA
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In Tennessee's defense, at their bicentennial mall they have a long, black granite wall which is engraved, starting at the year 1996 (for the bicentennial) and continuing back through history, noting important dates in Tennessee history. I can't recall if they mention Jesus' birth or the crusades, but I don't think they do, since the wall focuses on Tennessee history. They do mention the natives of the area. The wall also addresses the conditions of the area during the Ordovician period (which is a good one to mention since most of the fossils in that area are from that period) and the timeline also goes back to the beginning, which it puts at 4.X billion years. It's actually a pretty fascinating thing to look at, although it's not to scale. If it was, it would have to be a LOT longer!

Edit: Also keep in mind, that display could very easily be 30 years old or more. I don't know that it is, but it could be. It's been exactly the same as long as I can remember, and the first time I went there was probably in the mid 1980s. At the very least the museum has been at that location since, I think, 1981.
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,904 posts, read 18,458,797 times
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Not to be a party-pooper but our whole damn civilization was built out of bible sludge and debris. We still count the years based on how long ago some religious leaders told us the whole Jesus thing happened.

How is that surprising at all? If you wiped all religion from our culture, we wouldn't have a culture any more.

So rather than get mad about it, why is it so hard to see it for what it is and worry about more important things?

When I see "the birth of Jesus" put in a timeline as a waypoint, I just say, Oh, 2000 or so years ago, when the Rome was at it's height and the Han Dynasty ruled China. The time just before the dark ages; when people threw away thousands of years of accumulated knowledge and instead believed some immortal magic carpenter in the sky gave a rat's **** about them and appointed real live humans to do his bidding. People are silly... so where are the dinosaur exhibits?

Why worry about it? Jesus' "anointed" don't rule the world anymore...
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,904 posts, read 18,458,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Sadly, many visitors will probably never notice the time line does not mention even one NA event.

Perhaps they should add a few:

First constitutional Government
Use of Pictoglyphs for communication
Development of mobile housing (Teepee on a travois--First Winnebago)
First invention of an alphabet by a single person (Sequoia and the Tsalagi Alphabet)
First use of Currency (wampum)

The NA did very much, some that was not done in other parts of the world. That timeline should be recognized and not what was done on the opposite side of the world. Or they should change the name of the timeline, as what they show is not an Indian time Line.
Native Americans deserve to be recognized for their culture and achievements, but except maybe for Sequoia's work, I don't think any of those "firsts" are particularly accurate.

Besides, what does it matter? We are all humans. Human achievement belongs to all of us.
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,520,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Native Americans deserve to be recognized for their culture and achievements, but except maybe for Sequoia's work, I don't think any of those "firsts" are particularly accurate.

Besides, what does it matter? We are all humans. Human achievement belongs to all of us.
I should have designated them as Firsts in the Americas for accuracy. Yes, we are all humans, and all Human Achievements do belong to all of humanity. But it is a bit strange to call it an Indian Timeline and not mention the Native American achievements. It is sort of a Freudian slip and saying the person designing the Mural did not see the NA as Human.
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,038 posts, read 30,684,539 times
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One thing I really don't understand is why the US still refers to the first people to populate it as "Indians". You would think by now that they would realize that America is not India.
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Old 09-04-2011, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
8,692 posts, read 11,429,235 times
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And to think that I let my P.G. license lapse in Tennessee.
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Old 09-04-2011, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,424,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
One thing I really don't understand is why the US still refers to the first people to populate it as "Indians". You would think by now that they would realize that America is not India.
What adds to the confusion is that some Native Americans still include the word "Indian" in some of their own organizational names. For example, their university in Lawrence, Kansas, is called Haskell Indian Nations University. Haskell Indian Nations University

Other examples are:
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