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Old 09-03-2011, 06:12 AM
 
Location: Earth, Milky Way
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In order to discuss this maybe we need to start with the same premise...so let us assume, for the time being, that for whatever reason, Jesus was a successful healer - blind bartimaeus could see, the boy with the evil spirit/epilepsy became well, the crippled woman stood up...

Do you believe that everyone has the potential to heal as Jesus healed?

(ps. I only say to start with the same premise that Jesus could heal to avoid going off topic asking whether he actually existed, whether he was or was not the son of god etc...)
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Old 09-03-2011, 06:31 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Can Everyone Heal as Jesus Healed?
No. Not everyone can perform (genuine) miracles. If everyone could heal as Jesus healed, it would not be very special. It would be commonplace and thus not miraculous at all.
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
No. Not everyone can perform (genuine) miracles. If everyone could heal as Jesus healed, it would not be very special. It would be commonplace and thus not miraculous at all.
Then one could also say the same of resurrection after death, couldn't one?
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
No. Not everyone can perform (genuine) miracles. If everyone could heal as Jesus healed, it would not be very special. It would be commonplace and thus not miraculous at all.
Seems you are wrong Theo.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."
John 14:12
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:00 AM
 
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The loving god saves (scientifically unverifiable) miracles only for a handful of special people. An overwhelming majority of the rest of gods children are scum, deserve to be in pain and get no special treatment.

Last edited by calmdude; 09-03-2011 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:52 AM
 
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It's worth looking at this interesting account of a failure of the 12 to do a healing.

Mark 9. 217 A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18 Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.”

19 “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.” .... Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

26 The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, “He’s dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up.

28 After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

29 He replied, “This kind can come out only by praye
r."


Matthew 17. 14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”

17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment.

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you
.”

And
Luke 9. 37And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him.

38And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.

39And, lo, a spirit taketh him, and he suddenly crieth out; and it teareth him that he foameth again, and bruising him hardly departeth from him.

40And I besought thy disciples to cast him out; and they could not.

41And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

42And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

43And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples,

44Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men
."

The differences in the accounts is evident. The original text had a demon which the disciples could not drive out because they are an faithless and perverse generation. (Mark just amends it to 'unbelieving').

Beyond Jesus being able to do what they couldn't the original seems to be as in Luke - it goes on with Jesus predicting his death. Matthew and Mark (who often share material not found in Luke) have discussion about why the disciples could not cast the demon out.

Mark says that it can only come out by prayer. Quite apart from the doubtful medical validity of Jesus' diagnosis, Matthew says that they could not do it because they have not enough faith. Apart from the clear evidence yet again of a common text amended in a contradictory way by the various writers, (this doesn't appear in John round about 6.15 where it would appear it it had even happened) we have a healing which can be done by prayer or by sufficient faith. By anyone or just the chosen few?

Jesus chose the disciples. We have to ask whether it is doctrine that Jesus picked only those who were capable of doing these healings or are they supposed to be representative of ordinary people? If so, then surely anyone is capable of supernatural healing, is anyone is.
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Old 09-03-2011, 10:01 AM
 
2,447 posts, read 2,588,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpidrAkirE View Post
In order to discuss this maybe we need to start with the same premise...so let us assume, for the time being, that for whatever reason, Jesus was a successful healer - blind bartimaeus could see, the boy with the evil spirit/epilepsy became well, the crippled woman stood up...

Do you believe that everyone has the potential to heal as Jesus healed?

(ps. I only say to start with the same premise that Jesus could heal to avoid going off topic asking whether he actually existed, whether he was or was not the son of god etc...)
In a fantasy world, yes. But this is reality, where facts matter. Humans can't use magic because there's no such thing.
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Old 09-03-2011, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Then one could also say the same of resurrection after death, couldn't one?
No, but nice try.
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Old 09-04-2011, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
No, but nice try.
Normally in discussion one inserts between 'No' and 'nice try' some sort of explanation.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Earth, Milky Way
290 posts, read 333,070 times
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Originally Posted by Aganusn View Post
In a fantasy world, yes. But this is reality, where facts matter. Humans can't use magic because there's no such thing.
Who says we're talking about magic?
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