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Old 09-03-2011, 01:51 PM
 
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why condemn a person when who and what they are is because of their nature (something outside their control) or environment they develop in (again something out of their control) ?
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Old 09-03-2011, 05:32 PM
 
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Personally I believe that once we reach adulthood we can control our environment....and the nature of one can be changed...
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Old 09-04-2011, 01:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
Personally I believe that once we reach adulthood we can control our environment....and the nature of one can be changed...
hey Pureman, thanks for your response. Um... so you reckon we can change who we are. but I wonder can we really?

Take the case of homosexuality, no one wants to be a homosexual, and I don't know if they can change who they are, as much as they try....
Can gay people change who they are?
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:13 AM
 
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I don't see why they should even try. It is an interesting point though. I have said that we don't have to be bound by the plan evolution has for us, but then, if nature has made us violent or celibate or gay or rebellious or alcoholic or larcenous, what comes under the heading of minority rights and what under unacceptable anti -social behaviour?

Well, I'd say the Golden Rule applies. Under that, stealing is wrong because people don't want their stuff stolen (and neither does the person who has pinched the stuff want his stuff pinched, so none of that ownership is theft nonsense) but being gay or lesbian is hurting no -one and the only people offending are those who want to intervene to preach them into being straight.

That's why I say that science (finding out why we have these inclinations and possibly how they can be changed) and logic (which would determine whether we have any right to or should) is the best for trying to sort out these problems, and not religion, which is just going to give us bigotry justified by mythology.
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothylogan3 View Post
why condemn a person when who and what they are is because of their nature (something outside their control) or environment they develop in (again something out of their control) ?
People rarely do. What they usually do is condemn the person and then assign things like nature and nurture in retrospect. So for example with homosexuality the people hate it to start with and then say it is "not natural". Rarely do people decide it is "not natural" first and then hate it because of that.
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Old 09-04-2011, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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I do not see why anyone would ever want or need to change who/what they are. It all comes down to a matter of making intelligent, informed choices about what we do.

Life is a matter of choices. My body might be a 1940 Hupmobile and my environment might look like Jurassic Park, but I always have the option of selecting the choice I find will either cause the least harm or provide the most benefit. But, it does require effort on my part to investigate all options and do my best to verify my findings.

Life is not about who/what we are, it is about how we choose to use what we have and compensate for what we don't have.

We may have desires to do one thing, but we have the option of not doing so no matter how strong our desire is. We may have fear of doing something we need to do, but knowledge for the need of doing it will overcome the fear.

We all have limitations, unwanted desires, unneeded fantasies. But when it comes down to it we can all make the choice to do what we really need to do and avoid doing what we should not do.

Life is all about choices. We all may face different choices, but we can all take time to study the result of our choices before making them.

Nature and Environment may determine the choices we face, but they are still choices and we still have to accept the results of our own choices.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-04-2011 at 07:52 AM..
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Old 09-04-2011, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
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Personally, I don't believe in free will or the ability at any given time to do other than what we ended up doing.

Why? Because I believe we are nothing more than physical beings made up of physical particles that are completely subject to physical laws. I don't believe we have the ability to violate those physical laws. If a neuron is going to fire due to the laws governing electrical charge, chemistry, biology, etc, we can't metaphysically change that. Our behaviors are determined by the movement of physical charges and magnetic fields in our brains, and their movements are determined by what happened before, like billiard balls on a pool table. There is simply no room for us to "will" a neuron to fire differently than the physical antecedents will make it.

There are people who don't understand quantum physics who want to claim that it is in the uncertainty of quantum physics that a person can will a physical change to happen. But, that uncertainty is not something we control.

Anyway, since I believe we are simply playing out the complex interplay of a bunch of physical interactions, do I believe we should be held responsible for our actions? Yes, I do. Because if we are given a consequence for our antisocial behaviors, that consequence is a new input into our biological organism and can set off a physical chain reaction that can lead us to behaving differently in the future. The psychologist B.F. Skinner showed us consequences work to shape behavior. But, I believe it works in a very physical way to change the way our neural connections. So, yes, we must be held responsible for our actions; it was our organism that did it, and it needs to be trained through the input of consequences to respond differently in the future.

Now, some of our behaviors are more hard-wired than others and are less susceptible to modification through consequences. Sexual orientation appears to be one of those things. Perhaps one day science will have advanced far enough that a neuron surgeon could go in and "re-wire" even that which is relatively hard-wired. But, I don't think we should mess with someone's sexual orientation, as there is nothing wrong with it no matter where one falls along the spectrum. Our culture's homophobia comes from interpretations of a book that spouts off many stupid things. I sincerely hope we as a culture quickly outgrow the Bible.
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Old 09-04-2011, 07:40 AM
 
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"I don't believe in free will or the ability at any given time to do other than what we ended up doing.....So, yes, we must be held responsible for our actions; it was our organism that did it, and it needs to be trained through the input of consequences to respond differently in the future."

Well, Hueff, I don't see the difference between that and free will as other than a matter of semantics.

I don't see that indeterminacy has much to do with it. Whatever is going on at a sub - atomic level, in this illusionary universe of ours the predictable recurs with reliable repeatability and that is all that counts and the illusion of free will is also a pretty reliable one as well.
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:03 PM
 
2,726 posts, read 4,363,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothylogan3 View Post
why condemn a person when who and what they are is because of their nature (something outside their control) or environment they develop in (again something out of their control) ?
Not everybody condemns and it is important to seek out those who do not condemn.

But to answer your question, I think sometimes these people condemn because they were not allowed to learn from their mistakes. Their mistakes are held against them.
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