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Old 09-07-2011, 07:27 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Getting back to the issue of justice if there's no afterlife that strikes me as pretty unjust too. Andrei Sakharov had a shorter lifespan than Pol Pot. (I picked two atheists on purpose) Both go to the same place, nowhere. Sure we remember Sakharov in more glowing terms, but from an atheist perspective why would that matter to him? He's dead, what's he going to care that we like him better than Pol Pot or Mao or a stalk of celery?

If you go beyond atheists there's Idi Amin. He reportedly lived on a generous subsidy in Saudi Arabia until dying at 78. In America Suesan Knorr, after years of abuse and a shooting, was burned alive by her mother and brothers at the age of 18. Both Suesan and Idi go to oblivion, if there's no afterlife, although Idi Amin likely had more who loved him and more pleasure in this world than she got.

To me atheism only helps the justice/evil thing in the "intellectual puzzle" aspect. Emotionally you still have a world where kids can die horribly after a bad life while murderous dictators can live the good life into old age. However without an afterlife you subtract the idea the bad people always at least get punished or shamed somewhere (I think even UR often believes in a "temporary Hell" or "reflective period" or something where people are given an appropriate and temporary penance for their sins) while with an afterlife the innocent victims get some kind of comfort.
Yes, I know. It hurts that life seems to be terribly unfair and we tell ourselves that there must be some kind of justice that puts it all right after death since (for some unexplained reason) no god is putting it right while we are alive.

But the evidence seems to be that life is competition to survive on a planet that is quite capable of doing damage to a lot of lifeforms in addition to their own efforts.

I know it may be hard to accept but the only justice there is, is the kind we want for ourselves and we have to do it here and now and for ourselves and the future, because no -one else is going to do it for us and, for all i can see, we are not going to be given compensation for the unjust world God inflicted on us by giving us a nice one afterwards.

That is assuming that 'Justice' doesn't just consist of a god dishing out rewards to his believers no matter how much of a good life they had on earth while denying it to those who might have had a poor one - but didn't believe in the right god or not in any god at all.

How does belief in a religious afterlife give comfort to any but a few believers? It is no comfort but a hellthreat dressed up in warm fuzzy words.

Back to you, mate.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 3,113,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Getting back to the issue of justice if there's no afterlife that strikes me as pretty unjust too. Andrei Sakharov had a shorter lifespan than Pol Pot. (I picked two atheists on purpose) Both go to the same place, nowhere. Sure we remember Sakharov in more glowing terms, but from an atheist perspective why would that matter to him? He's dead, what's he going to care that we like him better than Pol Pot or Mao or a stalk of celery?

If you go beyond atheists there's Idi Amin. He reportedly lived on a generous subsidy in Saudi Arabia until dying at 78. In America Suesan Knorr, after years of abuse and a shooting, was burned alive by her mother and brothers at the age of 18. Both Suesan and Idi go to oblivion, if there's no afterlife, although Idi Amin likely had more who loved him and more pleasure in this world than she got.

To me atheism only helps the justice/evil thing in the "intellectual puzzle" aspect. Emotionally you still have a world where kids can die horribly after a bad life while murderous dictators can live the good life into old age. However without an afterlife you subtract the idea the bad people always at least get punished or shamed somewhere (I think even UR often believes in a "temporary Hell" or "reflective period" or something where people are given an appropriate and temporary penance for their sins) while with an afterlife the innocent victims get some kind of comfort.
We can't count on this world being just. Most things in this world are inherently unjust. This is a fallen world.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:31 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think justice in it's simplest form would be for all to have the same or equal options of choice, know the full consequences of the choices, and for this to be applied to all.

It does not require liking or even understanding, only knowledge.

Simple Justice may not be just.

Divine justice in my opinion would include the above but be administrated with pure mercy and applied with the understanding of circumstances, our capabilities and consideration for forgiveness to those who truly repent for their wrong choices.
There was a skit I wrote about a lot of people up before God (name your own) which of course included some atheists who, after being given one last chance to believe(1), in view of pretty conclusive proof, declared that they now believed and were let into Paradise (2) while the true believers screamed in outrage.

Now, that's what I call Justice.

(1) Under the Merciful and compassionate amendment

(2) Under the 'Last shall be first' clause.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:38 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,587,076 times
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Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
We can't count on this world being just. Most things in this world are inherently unjust. This is a fallen world.
If it fell, it was because whoever made it didn't make it to balance properly.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
We can't count on this world being just. Most things in this world are inherently unjust. This is a fallen world.
Agreed.

Here's an idea: Let's us develope a system of classifications to futher the divides! Oh, we already that in place.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:12 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I'm not sure what 'Ultimate questions' these are likely to be. I mean, 'Is there a God or not?' Would be answered. I suppose one might be debarred from the Celestial computer - library with all the answers to all the questions about Life the Universe and everything and which is open only to those who...preferred faith to questioning in life and who believed in God without evidence...and the right god?
Being a Christian isn't automatically the same as being incurious and narrow. Many Christians have many questions. Indeed I'd say many to most Christians I know have some questions or curiosities. (Besides which non-Christians in "invincible ignorance" I believe are possibly seen as being in Heaven)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
No, sorry I don't buy that scenario. It's childish, sectarian and just the hell -threat in a carrot rather than stick version. I'm sure you won't entertain that any more than I do.
I'm not asking you to entertain it, but I'm not sure how you got all that. I don't know that I said only members of one sect can go to Heaven. I'm not even sure I said only Christians go to Heaven. I can see it as maybe a carrot rather than stick reversal of the one deal though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Perhaps it is simply a question of uniting with God after death and knowing everything that God knows. I'm not sure whether the Vatican would approve of that idea. What you think before we go any further?
I don't think you end up knowing all God knows or becoming God or anything, but

"The secondary object of the beatific vision comprises everything the blessed may have a reasonable interest in knowing. It includes, in the first place, all the mysteries which the soul believed while on earth."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Heaven

Granted the "reasonable interest in knowing" could be a bit open to interpretation.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:35 AM
 
Location: planet octupulous is nearing earths atmosphere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
Let Jesus wash you of your sins, and you can live eternally instead of frying in hell. Nobody needs to fry in hell after Jesus`saving work on the cross.



Not accepting Jesus is a choice. People reject Him defiantly, scoffing at the idea of life after death. They make their own choices based on what they believe or disbelieve.



God sent His only Son to hang on a cross and be whipped, beaten, mocked and spat on so that we could all escape the Second Death. That is not cruelty. That is love and mercy the likes of which we cannot imagine. That is amazing grace.

stop beating around the holy bush... is it just to send someone to the hell fire for pain and suffering for etenity.??!!! i would say not!!! no matter how bad a crime you committed in your blink of an eye existence...nobody deserves hell fire for eternity.. some really bad people like hitler, sadam,, kadafi, pol pot..kim jong il.. yes those people should get a taste of a hell fire,, for maybe 6 trillion years or so???that would seem somewhat just.. but not for eternity
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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I'm just a messenger.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:39 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,587,076 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Being a Christian isn't automatically the same as being incurious and narrow. Many Christians have many questions. Indeed I'd say many to most Christians I know have some questions or curiosities. (Besides which non-Christians in "invincible ignorance" I believe are possibly seen as being in Heaven)
Good. I approve this curiosity in you.

Quote:
I'm not asking you to entertain it, but I'm not sure how you got all that. I don't know that I said only members of one sect can go to Heaven. I'm not even sure I said only Christians go to Heaven. I can see it as maybe a carrot rather than stick reversal of the one deal though.
You didn't. I was trying to look at the implications together with you rather than disagree with what you said. This comes down to is there any way unbelievers could be disadvantaged in an afterlife (which you did suggest) or not, in which case there is no advantage in belief. This idea of some kind of punishment, disbarring or otherwise raises the question of - on what basis? I suggest that not being the member of a particular religion seems absurd and I suggested that it would to you, but if you think it makes sense, by all means say why.

Quote:
I don't think you end up knowing all God knows or becoming God or anything, but

"The secondary object of the beatific vision comprises everything the blessed may have a reasonable interest in knowing. It includes, in the first place, all the mysteries which the soul believed while on earth."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Heaven

Granted the "reasonable interest in knowing" could be a bit open to interpretation.
I like the way it states it as some kind of fact rather than speculation. However, it is confirmation of 'all the mysteries which the soul believed while on earth' then the unbelievers will note that and get on with their no-worse-than-here life quite happily.

What I'm saying is that either belief has nothing to offer or there is some kind of miss- out penalty for non -belief (or the wrong kind) in which case, well, I used the example of a celestial computer library but if it isn't some kind of offer of all the knowledge we don't have now I'm not sure what it could be, not can I see what sort of satisfaction or point there would be to a god disbarring people who prized that knowledge because they wouldn't put unsupported faith ahead of it. Like I say, childish and petty.

Do you see that as I turn this idea around in my head it comes back to the same place. I don't see it is a believable action of a deity and I'm just asking whether you can 'sell' it to me as a feasible theory, quite apart from buying into it yourself.

P.S Looking at the link.

'supreme happiness. Therefore man is created for eternal happiness; and he will infallibly attain it hereafter, unless, by sin, he renders himself unworthy of so high a destiny.'
Sin being presumably unbelief or belief but lost through bad actions and only insincere repentance. A sort of blissful union with and knowing of God - not quite being party to his mind.

'God, in His wisdom, must set on the moral law a sanction, sufficiently appropriate and efficacious'.
There has to be a carrot if not a stick or (as I suggested) why should anyone feel the need to believe?

'Every man has an innate desire for perfect beatitude. Experience proves this. The sight of the imperfect goods of earth naturally leads us to form the conception of a happiness so perfect as to satisfy all the desires of our heart. But we cannot conceive such a state without desiring it. Therefore we are destined for a happiness that is perfect and, for that very reason, eternal; and it will be ours, unless we forfeit it by sin.'

This is the carrot. Not while this is the best that can be offered it suggests to me that ..I was going to say at the outset 'Leaving aside the point that Experience tells that we can't have perfect beatitude and we'd be in a total state of no - identity to do so' but didn't because this is arguable, but I have to say that I am so little attracted to a state that must obliviate (if that's even a word) everything that is Me in order to make that even feasible that I'll take vanilla and regard it as a punishment rather than a reward. What did Brecht say in 'The trial of Lucullus'? 'Into Oblivion with him!' If there is no punishment other than missing being wiped out apart from a bright light feeling of happiness, I'll take the punishment.

Eagerly awaiting your input. Recalling that this is about the justice aspect rather than the likelihood aspect.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-07-2011 at 11:04 AM..
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 3,113,210 times
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It's God's justice, not man's justice.
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