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Old 09-06-2011, 10:08 PM
 
Location: planet octupulous is nearing earths atmosphere
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if someone kills somebody should they fry in hell for eternity..??

if someone does not exept jesus or allah as their savior,, should they be cast down to the hell fire for eternity??>> for some brutal pain and suffering..

remember eternity^^>> is infinity..>> a googolplex is a one followed by a googol zeros,,, and is a number so large that the human mind cant even comprehend it.. but compared to etrnity or infinity a googolplex is like a speck.!!! so i would like to know how can it be just to send someone to hell for eternity?? when they only lived and committed a crime for a blink of an eye.!!!>> how is it justice?? got to be one cruel god thats for sure..

or is it man!!!!??? and not god that wrote those ancient words..

do you believe the above is just??
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 2,508,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruxan View Post
if someone kills somebody should they fry in hell for eternity..??
Let Jesus wash you of your sins, and you can live eternally instead of frying in hell. Nobody needs to fry in hell after Jesus`saving work on the cross.

Quote:
if someone does not exept jesus or allah as their savior,, should they be cast down to the hell fire for eternity??>> for some brutal pain and suffering..
Not accepting Jesus is a choice. People reject Him defiantly, scoffing at the idea of life after death. They make their own choices based on what they believe or disbelieve.

Quote:
remember eternity^^>> is infinity..>> a googolplex is a one followed by a googol zeros,,, and is a number so large that the human mind cant even comprehend it.. but compared to etrnity or infinity a googolplex is like a speck.!!! so i would like to know how can it be just to send someone to hell for eternity?? when they only lived and committed a crime for a blink of an eye.!!!>> how is it justice?? got to be one cruel god thats for sure.. or is it man!!!!??? and not god that wrote those ancient words.. do you believe the above is just??
God sent His only Son to hang on a cross and be whipped, beaten, mocked and spat on so that we could all escape the Second Death. That is not cruelty. That is love and mercy the likes of which we cannot imagine. That is amazing grace.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:10 PM
 
37,553 posts, read 25,268,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruxan View Post
if someone kills somebody should they fry in hell for eternity..??
if someone does not exept jesus or allah as their savior,, should they be cast down to the hell fire for eternity??>> for some brutal pain and suffering..
remember eternity^^>> is infinity..>> a googolplex is a one followed by a googol zeros,,, and is a number so large that the human mind cant even comprehend it.. but compared to etrnity or infinity a googolplex is like a speck.!!! so i would like to know how can it be just to send someone to hell for eternity?? when they only lived and committed a crime for a blink of an eye.!!!>> how is it justice?? got to be one cruel god thats for sure..
or is it man!!!!??? and not god that wrote those ancient words..
do you believe the above is just??
Admirable effort cruxan . . . but it is useless against unreasoning credulity. ET'ers are impervious to reason, logic or rationality. If its "written in ink" in their book by our ignorant ancient ancestors . . . there is no questioning it. I find it utterly astounding.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:31 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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The idea that some people would be unwilling or unable to accept a life with God and his people, even if they are in an afterlife where they know God is real, makes sense to me. So an eternal separation does make sense to me. Even the "place of darkness with regret and gnashing of teeth" that's sometimes in the Bible could be seen as fitting that in a way.

I admit though Hell simply as "Eternal Separation" does seem difficult to justify from the Bible. From tradition it also seems difficult as the visions Christians have had did involve fiery torment.

One idea is that no one really deserves eternal happiness in Heaven either, but people don't question that. So why question the justice of Hell. Although interesting that's a bit of a deflection though I suppose. (And from the Catholic perspective most of us do have to be purified before entering Heaven) Also it could simply mean rejecting the idea of both Heaven and Hell as commonly understood.

I don't know. I do believe in a Hell, but I admit besides from "a place of separation from God and the believers where those who are hateful live in their own hatefulness for eternity" I'm not sure what I feel about it. I remember I heard some Eastern Christian felt Heaven and Hell were the same place. That for "Hellish" people the love of God strikes them like mockery and being surrounded with righteous/virtuous people is unpleasant. That the "fire of love" is liking a burning misery to them and so forth. It was an interesting image, even if I'm not sure it makes sense.
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Hell belief is why I find many Christians so offensive...


Atheist Experience Archives: Jeff Dee Confronts Christians with Hell - YouTube
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:24 AM
 
34,630 posts, read 8,924,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
The idea that some people would be unwilling or unable to accept a life with God and his people, even if they are in an afterlife where they know God is real, makes sense to me. So an eternal separation does make sense to me. Even the "place of darkness with regret and gnashing of teeth" that's sometimes in the Bible could be seen as fitting that in a way.

I admit though Hell simply as "Eternal Separation" does seem difficult to justify from the Bible. From tradition it also seems difficult as the visions Christians have had did involve fiery torment.

One idea is that no one really deserves eternal happiness in Heaven either, but people don't question that. So why question the justice of Hell. Although interesting that's a bit of a deflection though I suppose. (And from the Catholic perspective most of us do have to be purified before entering Heaven) Also it could simply mean rejecting the idea of both Heaven and Hell as commonly understood.

I don't know. I do believe in a Hell, but I admit besides from "a place of separation from God and the believers where those who are hateful live in their own hatefulness for eternity" I'm not sure what I feel about it. I remember I heard some Eastern Christian felt Heaven and Hell were the same place. That for "Hellish" people the love of God strikes them like mockery and being surrounded with righteous/virtuous people is unpleasant. That the "fire of love" is liking a burning misery to them and so forth. It was an interesting image, even if I'm not sure it makes sense.
The hellfire idea does seem to pose a sort of choice on believers. They either opt for 'whatever God does is good, even if it's bad' approach and I'm not surprised that bothers them in the small hours, or they opt for the milder 'they chose to reject God. God says 'yes. Suit yourself.'

It is actually a good way of getting over the hellfire bother. It is rather like Dante's place where the deserving unbelievers lived. Without the bliss of playing the fourth trumpet 7th rank for eternity like Bob Hope (1), but not a bad life.

The problem there is that atheists say that if it's no worse that what we are used to (anything that is still a 'hellthreat' of a kind) we are quite happy that that. In fact being a deserving unbeliever looks (as I have argued before) the best Pascal's wager.

I have said to UR arguers that it does post the question of why one should be a Christian? There is this idea that we would miss out in some way but that's on a thin line between some kind of stick or carrot.

It is in a way similar to the problem with Buddhism. It was well enough to offer an opt - out option from the wheel of rebirth when life was indeed just suffering, but in fact, in a life which really ain't so bad and the main problem with it is that it's apparently the only one we get, then what most Buddhists want to do is stay on the cycle of rebirth but bank enough Merit so they come back as a premiership football player or a rock star.

(1) Or am I thinking of Jack Benny in 'The horn blows at midnight'?

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-07-2011 at 06:39 AM..
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:48 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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By being separated from God for eternity you will never have the answers to the ultimate questions. Not just the big philosophical questions, but I would think the kind of sciency questions too. You will only have "human" happiness without hope for anything beyond that.

Although to be honest I don't see threatening as necessarily the way to go. Christianity is, to me at least, simply better than being an atheist. (By "atheist" I'm mostly meaning "Metaphysical Naturalism/Rationalism" and by "Christian" I'm mostly speaking of Catholicism and Orthodox. I don't relate as well to Protestantism and can't really speak to it as well. Like I think I've said I've been generally less interested in Protestantism than I have Chinese folk-religion or Zoroastrianism or Sufism. Although my town is majority Catholic in population Protestantism is still all around me, if I want to learn of it I can just ask people. Anyway in principle I suppose I'd say Protestantism is better than Rationalism/Naturalism too) It is more satisfying, IMO. (I don't want to do the thing of saying my views are an inarguable reality like gravity or natural selection) Christianity allows for dimensions atheism can not and for the hope of answers or experiences that the physical world, as we know it by science, can never allow. As well as a sense of community and continuity.

Whether one can "live alright" as an atheist is not really my issue so much. I think one likely can. You just can't do anything more than that, at least not without difficulty. Which I guess gets back around to the "purely human happiness for eternity" deal in a way. That's what atheism would lead to in my mind, not misery and burning flesh or whatever.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:12 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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Getting back to the issue of justice if there's no afterlife that strikes me as pretty unjust too. Andrei Sakharov had a shorter lifespan than Pol Pot. (I picked two atheists on purpose) Both go to the same place, nowhere. Sure we remember Sakharov in more glowing terms, but from an atheist perspective why would that matter to him? He's dead, what's he going to care that we like him better than Pol Pot or Mao or a stalk of celery?

If you go beyond atheists there's Idi Amin. He reportedly lived on a generous subsidy in Saudi Arabia until dying at 78. In America Suesan Knorr, after years of abuse and a shooting, was burned alive by her mother and brothers at the age of 18. Both Suesan and Idi go to oblivion, if there's no afterlife, although Idi Amin likely had more who loved him and more pleasure in this world than she got.

To me atheism only helps the justice/evil thing in the "intellectual puzzle" aspect. Emotionally you still have a world where kids can die horribly after a bad life while murderous dictators can live the good life into old age. However without an afterlife you subtract the idea the bad people always at least get punished or shamed somewhere (I think even UR often believes in a "temporary Hell" or "reflective period" or something where people are given an appropriate and temporary penance for their sins) while with an afterlife the innocent victims get some kind of comfort.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:17 AM
 
34,630 posts, read 8,924,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
By being separated from God for eternity you will never have the answers to the ultimate questions. Not just the big philosophical questions, but I would think the kind of sciency questions too. You will only have "human" happiness without hope for anything beyond that.

Although to be honest I don't see threatening as necessarily the way to go. Christianity is, to me at least, simply better than being an atheist. (By "atheist" I'm mostly meaning "Metaphysical Naturalism/Rationalism" and by "Christian" I'm mostly speaking of Catholicism and Orthodox. I don't relate as well to Protestantism and can't really speak to it as well. Like I think I've said I've been generally less interested in Protestantism than I have Chinese folk-religion or Zoroastrianism or Sufism. Although my town is majority Catholic in population Protestantism is still all around me, if I want to learn of it I can just ask people. Anyway in principle I suppose I'd say Protestantism is better than Rationalism/Naturalism too) It is more satisfying, IMO. (I don't want to do the thing of saying my views are an inarguable reality like gravity or natural selection) Christianity allows for dimensions atheism can not and for the hope of answers or experiences that the physical world, as we know it by science, can never allow. As well as a sense of community and continuity.

Whether one can "live alright" as an atheist is not really my issue so much. I think one likely can. You just can't do anything more than that, at least not without difficulty. Which I guess gets back around to the "purely human happiness for eternity" deal in a way. That's what atheism would lead to in my mind, not misery and burning flesh or whatever.
I'm not sure what 'Ultimate questions' these are likely to be. I mean, 'Is there a God or not?' Would be answered. I suppose one might be debarred from the Celestial computer - library with all the answers to all the questions about Life the Universe and everything and which is open only to those who...preferred faith to questioning in life and who believed in God without evidence...and the right god?

No, sorry I don't buy that scenario. It's childish, sectarian and just the hell -threat in a carrot rather than stick version. I'm sure you won't entertain that any more than I do.

Perhaps it is simply a question of uniting with God after death and knowing everything that God knows. I'm not sure whether the Vatican would approve of that idea. What you think before we go any further?
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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I think justice in it's simplest form would be for all to have the same or equal options of choice, know the full consequences of the choices, and for this to be applied to all.

It does not require liking or even understanding, only knowledge.

Simple Justice may not be just.

Divine justice in my opinion would include the above but be administrated with pure mercy and applied with the understanding of circumstances, our capabilities and consideration for forgiveness to those who truly repent for their wrong choices.
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