U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
View Poll Results: Do you support the right of a Muslim student to pray in public school?
Yes 30 62.50%
No 18 37.50%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-30-2013, 09:27 AM
 
5,536 posts, read 2,810,607 times
Reputation: 4144

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by acts_2_christian View Post
If this were a muslim nation then yes
Do you happen to think America is a Christian nation?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-30-2013, 09:40 AM
 
5,536 posts, read 2,810,607 times
Reputation: 4144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Of course it is.

Since it is a given that the Atheist can't be 100% ABSOLUTELY INFALLIBLY SURE (nothing is "100% for sure") there are no God(s)...they logically only believe there are no God(s).
Because you can't "know" that no God(s) exist...and you also realize the vast majority have/do/will perceive a God entity...Atheism isn't a lack of belief in the perception of a God entity...it is belief (since you can't possibly be sure) in a lack of the existence of a God entity. Thus, they are "A"-Theist.

I realize that some Atheists hate having "belief" assigned to their concept...due to their affliction with "Beliefophobia"...but that doesn't change that it necessarily is a "belief".
I'm an atheist and I'm not 100% sure about anything super natural. Aliens, Gods, or my little ponies but I'm a 100% sure I won't act on my imagination in any way. I'm a 100% sure you don't know anymore than I do. I'm 100% sure I wouldn't desire a mandated school prayer based on what I imagine to be true for everyone else.

That said I do believe when giving the term "belief" you have to make clear which meaning you are implying. Are you stating atheists have a "religious conviction?" Or a belief as in a "firmly held opinion?"
Same word, different meaning. Could you be clear about "belief?" I assume since we are in the religious thread you believe atheists have a religious conviction. That would have to include a being, God or alien, etc. So no, we do not have a religious belief.

Now, do I have a firmly held opinion? Yes, I do in many things.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2013, 09:43 AM
 
5,536 posts, read 2,810,607 times
Reputation: 4144
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
I support all prayer in school as long as it's not headed by the school or school officials and is not done during instructional time. Before, after and in-between classes is perfectly fine.
I eco this. Do what you want, this is a free country and all else falls into place if we keep it as such. You can pray, I cannot, simple. There is plenty of time for people of all religious beliefs to pray. IMO, of course.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2013, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 7,001,870 times
Reputation: 3631
Default Because it's a silly story on the intellectual and mental-age of an 8 year old's imagination!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
What a wasted effort of a post!

It is a given that atheists believe there is no God(s). That is the definition if an atheist.

Nowhere in any discussion I have read, here or elsewhere, has anybody ever claimed to know for sure that there is no God(s), thus causing a new term to be needed.

Nothing new here, folks.
Actually, I will go that extra little distance and make the claim, as I see it FOR SURE...

That there is no Abrahamic, nor any other, godly entity. How can I say this? It's strictly on the basis of common sense. Because it's so banal, so misguided and obviously brainwashed in at a young age, with add-on punishments like HELL (not found in the bible; thus a convenient add-on) to really work the frightened-to-death of DEATH logical and scientific illiterates.

And it's so well-confirmed by His Glorious and Permanent Absence, His absolute lack, and that of His continuously absent son, the fully-invented Jesus figurehead [designed as a simple go-between invention some many years past his supposed resurrection...] that there's in fact more proof {I can turn on the TV and confirm it any morning I'd like to...}, for a puffy and cuddly green talking dinosaur, or a golden unicorn prancing about in your back yard, or for a fire-breathing dragon in some cave in the Himalayas, or for a goose that lays pure 24-carat gold when asked, and on and on.

Theists have to disprove all of their utterly stupid GodGuy ideas before I will even lightly consider the even more stupid and inconceivably illogical stories of your God. Why has He not shown up for over 2000 yrs? Why does He never answer prayers, except at a rate equal (or mostly less than, in fact...) to pure chance and chaotic results?

Because He does not exist? He's just a wildly imaginary God figure? You got it!

Remember after all, this IS the 21st century and we do provide some beginners-level teachings and knowledge in basic logical deductive and investigatory reasoning. If you deny your children the right to attend Science 101 courses starting in grade 8 or so, you are severly denying them the basic tools of critical thinking, which quickly demolish Christianity and all the other imaginary religions on the spot.

The shear unlikelihood, the improbability and the utter lack of positively answered prayers, or of regenerated limbs, or healed terminal cancers, makes a total mockery of any idea of an actual existing etherial God entity out there (and He's always, seemingly, located above us. Why is that again? Why is He not below us? Hmmm... )

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Do you happen to think America is a Christian nation?
God, I hope not, huh PS? So many desperately wish for this to be legally true so they can then "enforce" all of it's ancient sanctions and mandates, but heck: too little too late. Yeah, our founding fathers followed the spiritual pressures and religious morés of the day, but that does not, in any way, prove anything about His Holy existence. Sorry. That's not good enough!

In fact the ever-improving understandings of modern science far outstrip that level of antiquated understanding, which is borne out of shear fear, to be replaced by a level of logic-based understanding several orders of magnitude above that unchanging mythology.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2013, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Nanaimo, Canada
1,008 posts, read 748,221 times
Reputation: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Of course it is.

Since it is a given that the Atheist can't be 100% ABSOLUTELY INFALLIBLY SURE (nothing is "100% for sure") there are no God(s)...they logically only believe there are no God(s).
Because you can't "know" that no God(s) exist...and you also realize the vast majority have/do/will perceive a God entity...Atheism isn't a lack of belief in the perception of a God entity...it is belief (since you can't possibly be sure) in a lack of the existence of a God entity. Thus, they are "A"-Theist.

I realize that some Atheists hate having "belief" assigned to their concept...due to their affliction with "Beliefophobia"...but that doesn't change that it necessarily is a "belief".
Let's extend this metaphor a bit:

Since many Christians admit to knowing, with one hundred percent certainty, that God exists (rather than 'believing' he does), the logical conclusion to draw is that Christianity is not a belief.

At least, that's the conclusion we can draw if we follow your logic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2013, 09:34 PM
 
3,340 posts, read 1,510,382 times
Reputation: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
What a wasted effort of a post!

It is a given that atheists believe there is no God(s). That is the definition if an atheist. Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

Nowhere in any discussion I have read, here or elsewhere, has anybody ever claimed to know for sure that there is no God(s), thus causing a new term to be needed.

Nothing new here, folks.
"Wasted effort" is relative. I was at work, making money...and necessarily at a computer anyway (same as right now)...so it cost me nothing of my life but the response.
I bet most here devote time and effort that is specific to posting to this board. Is that a "wasted effort"?
I guess anything beyond that which is needed for survival is "wasted effort"...and certainly posting to internet forums like this is not something one "must" do...and though I do get that you were only making the "wasted effort" comment to be insulting, I would venture to say I "waste" no more effort than anyone else does posting to this board.

If you do a search for "Websters" under my screen name, you will see I use that as a "go to" for definitions...I guess I'm "old school" and feel most comfortable doing the "Webster says" thing. I mean, if you can't count on Websters to define a word...you can't count on much of anything.
This is the definition I find there: Atheist - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
It defines "Atheist" as: one who believes that there is no deity...the operative word being "believes".
Atheism is the "belief" that there is no deity.
And you are correct...there is "nothing new" there...because it's always been a "belief".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2013, 10:07 PM
 
5,536 posts, read 2,810,607 times
Reputation: 4144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
"Wasted effort" is relative. I was at work, making money...and necessarily at a computer anyway (same as right now)...so it cost me nothing of my life but the response.
I bet most here devote time and effort that is specific to posting to this board. Is that a "wasted effort"?
I guess anything beyond that which is needed for survival is "wasted effort"...and certainly posting to internet forums like this is not something one "must" do...and though I do get that you were only making the "wasted effort" comment to be insulting, I would venture to say I "waste" no more effort than anyone else does posting to this board.

If you do a search for "Websters" under my screen name, you will see I use that as a "go to" for definitions...I guess I'm "old school" and feel most comfortable doing the "Webster says" thing. I mean, if you can't count on Websters to define a word...you can't count on much of anything.
This is the definition I find there: Atheist - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
It defines "Atheist" as: one who believes that there is no deity...the operative word being "believes".
Atheism is the "belief" that there is no deity.
And you are correct...there is "nothing new" there...because it's always been a "belief".
That's a kin to saying I have "a faith" because I have faith in myself. You can say it if you like hearing it but using synonym like trickery doesn't make atheism a religious belief. What's the point anyway? What on earth do you gain from atheists becoming a religious belief? Want to lump us in with the Jews? Scientologists? lol
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2013, 10:17 PM
 
3,340 posts, read 1,510,382 times
Reputation: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I'm an atheist and I'm not 100% sure about anything super natural. Aliens, Gods, or my little ponies but I'm a 100% sure I won't act on my imagination in any way. I'm a 100% sure you don't know anymore than I do. I'm 100% sure I wouldn't desire a mandated school prayer based on what I imagine to be true for everyone else.

That said I do believe when giving the term "belief" you have to make clear which meaning you are implying. Are you stating atheists have a "religious conviction?" Or a belief as in a "firmly held opinion?"
Same word, different meaning. Could you be clear about "belief?" I assume since we are in the religious thread you believe atheists have a religious conviction. That would have to include a being, God or alien, etc. So no, we do not have a religious belief.

Now, do I have a firmly held opinion? Yes, I do in many things.
Actually Poppy...I've addressed this kind of thing before. I think you might remember the threads about Atheism As A Religion that I commented on in the past.

I see words in their full definition...if something can fit into that...then I find it reasonable to assign that word as a descriptor of that thing.
Thus I apply the word "belief" in its full definitive splendor here. "Atheism" fits in that definition. MOF, as I have stated before...the way I see it, everything does...since nothing we know is absolutely and completely infallible, it's ALL "belief/faith" in the conclusions and determinations we come to.
I have also stated in the past that the concept of "Atheism" can be a "religion" (as per the full definition of "religion")...depending upon how perfervid the holder is about it.

And, to stay on topic...I don't think any sort of prayer or theologically based recitation belongs in the public schools. They should be strictly secular institutions, IMO. They should teach about religions, as a matter of information...but there should be no outward practice of it.
If people want that...send the kids to a private school...or home school them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2013, 10:52 PM
 
3,340 posts, read 1,510,382 times
Reputation: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
That's a kin to saying I have "a faith" because I have faith in myself. You can say it if you like hearing it but using synonym like trickery doesn't make atheism a religious belief. What's the point anyway? What on earth do you gain from atheists becoming a religious belief? Want to lump us in with the Jews? Scientologists? lol
No, no Poppy...no "trickery" here.
As a matter of fact...I see the trickery as those that edit and "cherry pick" portions of definitions to try to avoid associations with certain words out of some headtrip bias toward differing viewpoints. I see those that do that as the ones looking to "gain" something, and trying to make a "point".
I certainly understand the concept of Atheism...I was one for most of my adult life. But I never assumed it wasn't a "belief" I held (the nonexistence of Gods).
Of course I know the difference in the belief that no Gods exist, with a belief that a God or Gods do exist such as Judaism...but it's still ALL "belief" no matter which concept one embraces. No "trick" intended.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2013, 11:05 PM
 
3,340 posts, read 1,510,382 times
Reputation: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob View Post
Let's extend this metaphor a bit:

Since many Christians admit to knowing, with one hundred percent certainty, that God exists (rather than 'believing' he does), the logical conclusion to draw is that Christianity is not a belief.

At least, that's the conclusion we can draw if we follow your logic.
That isn't my "logic" at all.

My view is: One can claim or "admit" they know something with 100% certainty all they want...but they really don't. My view is that NOTHING is "for sure"...it's ALL "faith/belief".
The things I say I "know", are the things that I have full faith/belief that my conclusion/determination is correct...while realizing there is the possibility it may not be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top