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View Poll Results: Do you support the right of a Muslim student to pray in public school?
Yes 30 62.50%
No 18 37.50%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 06-02-2013, 10:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
What would make it worthwhile, old chum, is if you looked past the list of mythical beings you collated to the points we made rather than use your chuckling at our mythical bestiary as a pretext not to.
AWK...for some reason you equate my disagreeing with those points, to me having not considered them.
As you know...I find the Atheist position to be a pretty good position, with decent merit (which is why I embraced it for all those years)...better that most.
I just believe (UH OH!...that word again!) I'm now hip to a superior and more accurate concept.
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Old 06-02-2013, 10:38 PM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 38,010,708 times
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I wonder how many christians would say they are 100% in their belief they have chosen the right god and are 100% sure all the other religions are wrong.
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Old 06-03-2013, 03:56 AM
 
33,523 posts, read 8,479,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
AWK...for some reason you equate my disagreeing with those points, to me having not considered them.
As you know...I find the Atheist position to be a pretty good position, with decent merit (which is why I embraced it for all those years)...better that most.
I just believe (UH OH!...that word again!) I'm now hip to a superior and more accurate concept.
Well done. I reckon you won that one.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:05 AM
 
7,366 posts, read 6,482,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Semantics?! Yeah...I only have a general knowledge of semantics...and I don't try to use it to try to disassociate myself from things.
Kinda like Bill Clinton using semantic cha-cha to try to narrow down the meaning of the word "is", so to avoid having to cop to lying about messing around with Monica L.
His famous statement, "It depends on the what the meaning of the word "is" is", was really something. Trouble for him was...nobody bought it that time either...and it got him impeached.

In some situations, multiple word definitions are a matter of "or", not "and".
Such as, if you were using the word "ball" to describe a gala with music and dancing...the definition that notes it as being a round type of toy would not fit at all, and could be ignored.
BUT!!...BOTH the meanings within the definition of the word "Atheist" you linked were totally applicable to the matter under discussion.
So, why did you only note the one that said " a disbelief in the existence of deity"...but left out the also completely "semantically relevant" one that said it was, "the doctrine that there is no deity"? Why'd you do that? Ohhhhhhh...I bet it was that "doctrine" association, wasn't it!!

You know why you, et al, do that...and you also know I, et al, are fully hip to why you do that.
The same reason some narrow down the definition of "God" to only be characters like "Thor", "Zeus", "Jehovah", "Allah", etc...and refuse to acknowledge the more basic and generic definitions of God.
If they were to acknowledge the more broad definitions of God, they'd have to admit that there exists that which fits that definition, and thus, God exists...just like if you acknowledged the full definition of "Atheist", you'd have to go with it being a "belief".

YOU, et al, are the ones with the insecurities about your beliefs...to the point that you get so twisted up, you can't even bring yourself to get a clue that it IS a "belief".

Here's how it REALLY is...AGAIN:
Since one cannot be 100% infallibly sure (nothing is 100% infallibly sure) of the view they embrace relative to the matter...it is necessarily a BELIEF either way...thus:
"Theism" is the BELIEF that God(s) exist.
"Atheism" is the BELIEF that God(s) don't exist.
Yet, you do the same as you claim I am doing, ignoring the "disbelief" definition. You are free to define atheism to however suits you, but you're not free to define my thoughts. Maybe you'd prefer to call us anti-theists, but most of us atheists, proclaim no belief in any god until presented with real, verifiable evidence, a process you seem to have abandoned for some reason, instead opting for blind faith. In the end, it really doesn't matter how you want to define it. Again, you are playing a poor game of semantics, where you are the only contestant, likely to help justify your unsubstantiated blind faith, attempting to equate it to the process that you supposed once used to concluded that no god likely exists, one of logic and reason. Regardless of how hard you try, blind faith and reasoned logic will never be equated.

BTW, you are wrong when stating that nothing is 100% infallibly sure. For example, I can be 100% infallibly certain that one cannot draw a square circle.
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Old 06-03-2013, 06:45 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
10,100 posts, read 10,271,608 times
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Regardless of what GldnRule says, we have yet to hear from a single atheist posting here that agrees that atheism is a "belief system," a "doctrine," or a "religion." You can quote dictionaries until next week, but you still have absolutely zero atheists buying what you are trying to sell. All you manage to do is cloud the issue a little tiny bit with a very few of the theists that post here.
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:21 AM
 
6,604 posts, read 3,809,443 times
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[quote=Amaznjohn;29847003]
Quote:
Yet, you do the same as you claim I am doing, ignoring the "disbelief" definition. You are free to define atheism to however suits you, but you're not free to define my thoughts. Maybe you'd prefer to call us anti-theists, but most of us atheists, proclaim no belief in any god until presented with real, verifiable evidence, a process you seem to have abandoned for some reason, instead opting for blind faith. In the end, it really doesn't matter how you want to define it.
Nope...that's not what I'm doing. You are the one editing and "cherry picking" definitions to support your position...and ignoring the others. While I accept ALL the applicable definitions...glean the collective info from them...then I make my determinations and draw my conclusions based on that.
I do agree that "in the end, it really doesn't matter"...very little actually does.

Quote:
Again, you are playing a poor game of semantics, where you are the only contestant, likely to help justify your unsubstantiated blind faith, attempting to equate it to the process that you supposed once used to concluded that no god likely exists, one of logic and reason. Regardless of how hard you try, blind faith and reasoned logic will never be equated.
I've never made my determinations and drawn my conclusions from "blind faith"...though I take no issue with anyone that does draw their theological conclusions that way. Of course I use "faith"...EVERYTHING we think we know we take on "faith"...because we could be wrong about anything.
I used to define God very narrowly, and viewed God(s) as the typical vast cast of characters that have been presented as God(s)...and through logic and reason I came to believe that God(s), as defined like that, didn't exist.
Then, after information I gained from this board, I realized that I wasn't considering God in a fully definitive context. Once I understood the concept of God definitively in more generic terms (that which has created all reality...and controls, maintains, and sustains that what has been created)...I determined through logic and reason that there does exist that which is definitively God...thus, I believe God does exist.

Quote:
BTW, you are wrong when stating that nothing is 100% infallibly sure. For example, I can be 100% infallibly certain that one cannot draw a square circle.
Bogus...from the get-go...in that "squared circle" is a self-contradictory concept. Like asking for "the length of infinity".
I've even had people try to argue that the concept that nothing can be 100% infallible is out of whack...because I can't make that determination for sure, if nothing is for sure. My answer: "There ya go...now you understand!"

Of course...I can't be certain that I'm correct about any of this...nor whether anyone else is either. I'm drawn in because I do enjoy, and many times I'm amused (I especially dig the snark), by the back-and-forth exchange of all the different ideas.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:03 AM
 
6,604 posts, read 3,809,443 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Regardless of what GldnRule says, we have yet to hear from a single atheist posting here that agrees that atheism is a "belief system," a "doctrine," or a "religion." You can quote dictionaries until next week, but you still have absolutely zero atheists buying what you are trying to sell. All you manage to do is cloud the issue a little tiny bit with a very few of the theists that post here.
Yes...this is true.
But, never mind us, or the handful of people on this board...let's look at this in the broader context: Regardless of what you say about it...very few of the people that have ever lived over the past few thousand years "buy" the concept of Atheism. All Atheism has managed to do is cloud the issue of Theism a little tiny bit, with very few of those tens of billions of people agreeing with the concept of Atheism.

I guess that's what counts, right?--How many agree with your view.
You do make a great point here mensaguy. Nothing like using the great and powerful ad populum to kick some butt...it's my personal favorite!
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:17 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
10,100 posts, read 10,271,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Yes...this is true.
But, never mind us, or the handful of people on this board...let's look at this in the broader context: Regardless of what you say about it...very few of the people that have ever lived over the past few thousand years "buy" the concept of Atheism. All Atheism has managed to do is cloud the issue of Theism a little tiny bit, with very few of those tens of billions of people agreeing with the concept of Atheism.

I guess that's what counts, right?--How many agree with your view.
You do make a great point here mensaguy. Nothing like using the great and powerful ad populum to kick some butt...it's my personal favorite!
No. Absolutely not. Majority does NOT rule. We all know it is your favorite argument, but, no matter how many times you repeat it, that is NOT what counts. Sometimes, what is right count, even if the majority disagree. Just to take a guess here; if we took a poll today, a majority of Americans would ban the practice of Islam and the immigration from Islamic states. Well, sorry. The majority wouldn't win that one.

Atheism isn't doing anything. The vast, vast majority of atheists never, ever mention religion at all. They simply don't care.

Go on over to the Atheism & Agnosticism forum and ask them there how many discuss religion in real life.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:05 PM
 
6,604 posts, read 3,809,443 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
No. Absolutely not. Majority does NOT rule. We all know it is your favorite argument, but, no matter how many times you repeat it, that is NOT what counts. Sometimes, what is right count, even if the majority disagree. Just to take a guess here; if we took a poll today, a majority of Americans would ban the practice of Islam and the immigration from Islamic states. Well, sorry. The majority wouldn't win that one.

Atheism isn't doing anything. The vast, vast majority of atheists never, ever mention religion at all. They simply don't care.

Go on over to the Atheism & Agnosticism forum and ask them there how many discuss religion in real life.
If it doesn't count...then what is with all the ad pop appeals?...such as:
"we have yet to hear from a single atheist posting here that agrees that atheism is a "belief system," a "doctrine," or a "religion"."
AND
"you still have absolutely zero atheists buying what you are trying to sell. All you manage to do is cloud the issue a little tiny bit with a very few of the theists that post here."
AND
"The vast, vast majority of atheists never, ever mention religion at all"
AND
"Go on over to the Atheism & Agnosticism forum and ask them there how many discuss religion"

You say it doesn't count...then put up a "head counting game" to try to bolster your argument.

I am hip to why you contradicted yourself--Because you know that in the real world the majority DOES rule almost every time.
As I've said so many times: Ad Populum only fails in Pedigree Logic...but it typically dominates in real world scenarios. Which is why it is my favorite...since I'm a "real world" kinda dude.
So, while I can dig why you couldn't resist the temptation to try to use it...you can't have it both ways. You can't say it doesn't count...then use it to support your argument.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:12 PM
 
3,347 posts, read 2,117,843 times
Reputation: 1276
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
If it doesn't count...then what is with all the ad pop appeals?...such as:
"we have yet to hear from a single atheist posting here that agrees that atheism is a "belief system," a "doctrine," or a "religion"."
AND
"you still have absolutely zero atheists buying what you are trying to sell. All you manage to do is cloud the issue a little tiny bit with a very few of the theists that post here."
AND
"The vast, vast majority of atheists never, ever mention religion at all"
AND
"Go on over to the Atheism & Agnosticism forum and ask them there how many discuss religion"

You say it doesn't count...then put up a "head counting game" to try to bolster your argument.

I am hip to why you contradicted yourself--Because you know that in the real world the majority DOES rule almost every time.
As I've said so many times: Ad Populum only fails in Pedigree Logic...but it typically dominates in real world scenarios. Which is why it is my favorite...since I'm a "real world" kinda dude.
So, while I can dig why you couldn't resist the temptation to try to use it...you can't have it both ways. You can't say it doesn't count...then use it to support your argument.
It isn't being used as an ad pop ( people agree with me therefor I am right) it is being used to point out that your characterizations of atheists are not entirely true(in fact, for the sample size of this forum, they are almost entirely untrue!)

This is not an ad populum argument in the least, it is pointing out that you are constructing a strawman that has little correspondence to reality.

The fact that you can take your own attempt at creating a straw-atheist and turn it into another thread about how the majority opinion determines truth (even though you clearly don't believe it by your own admission) just goes to show that your kink must be whipping deceased equines...

-NoCapo
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