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Old 09-11-2011, 05:16 AM
 
1,081 posts, read 1,700,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Of course it is very persuasive to come across someone who has simply offloaded all their problems and worries in exchange for complete confidence in a promise.

It is very persuasive indeed but it essentially a semi - con - trick like getting you to bet on the lottery or take Pascal's wager. I say a semi - con trick as it might just happen. You can't be definite that it won't.
As I say don't, never have and never will believe in any religion, political system, new age belief system, organisation - I don't truly believe ANYONE REALLY believes in Religion in its current form - Even the Pope - Behind even the most sincere human being we are all Humans with good and bad thoughts.

For example - if someone wrote a book about someone 300 years ago who rose from the dead and performed Miracles - It would be greeted as nonsense, in fact many people so sceptical in the daily lives - but at the same time are religious - how can you be diserning and shut out other religions, but only believe yours as the true belief. Just as we have people into self help systems like the secret, or people who are workaholics and worship the corporate world- They will put there work before family, personal ethics and there life revolves around it - they might claim not to be religious but there just the same as religious types except its a different kind of belief system - Just as we have Political types who argue that Free Market Capitalism is the only way forward, the left who argue that redistribution of wealth is the only way fair way to do it, or economists who think of human behaviour can be controlled and managed with financial incentives and punishments.

These are all just belief systems - No one is more valid or important than the other.

I think we all have spiritual side to us - Where we believe that there is more to our lives than, and we not just animals who live and die. Perhaps its healthy to have a belief system.

Anyway my point was this chance encounter sort of lifted my spirits.

Last edited by mikeyking; 09-11-2011 at 05:27 AM.. Reason: update

 
Old 09-11-2011, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,424,287 times
Reputation: 1013
Mormons call that calming and lifting-your-spirits effect, the Spirit. And they would claim that you were feeling the Spirit because it was testifying to your soul the truthfulness of what the person was saying to you.

I used to teach Mormon missionaries how to "teach by the Spirit" and invite the Spirit" into those types of discussions. I now believe that what I used to call the Spirit is actually a number of different psychological experiences that the brain produces whenever certain prerequisites are met. When I was teaching missionaries how to teach by the Spirit, I was teaching them to set the environment up to illicit the psychological experience of "warmth in the chest" (psychologists call this elevation), calm, etc.

It doesn't mean that anything that is being said is true, and Mormonism doesn't have a monopoly on those experiences. In fact, once you understand the prerequisites, you can produce those same feelings anytime you want. I experience them on a regular basis.

To learn more, take a look at this old post of mine: Easy to be Entreated: How to produce spiritual experiences
 
Old 09-11-2011, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,277 posts, read 20,883,681 times
Reputation: 9954
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyking View Post
Who knows perhaps she performed some mind bending hypnosis on me or something.
Well, she was a twenty-year old girl with no training in mind-control. Was she pretty? Do you consider yourself to be unusually weak-willed in situations of this sort?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyking View Post
I think we all have spiritual side to us - Where we believe that there is more to our lives than, and we not just animals who live and die. Perhaps its healthy to have a belief system.

Anyway my point was this chance encounter sort of lifted my spirits.
Let me tell you about my sister. She was raised LDS, just like me. Our parents were probably more liberal and free-thinking than the average Mormon parents, and they encouraged us not to just accept everything we heard taught in church without giving it some serious consideration. Neither of us was discouraged from questioning and if we doubted the veracity of something we'd been taught, it was okay.

I remained a member, but my sister chose at about the age of 18 to have nothing more to do with the Church. For about 35 years, she considered herself to be an agnostic, but strongly leaned towards atheism. Her husband was a strong atheist. They had two sons, now ages 20 and 17. Neither God, nor religion, nor anything spiritual is ever even mentioned in their home.

Well, about three and a half years ago, her oldest son was driving up the interstate which winds through the mountains east of Salt Lake City heading towards Wyoming. He lost control of the car and rolled it four times, breaking his neck in several places, but miraculously (or whatever an atheist would want to call it ) not severing his spinal cord. Since he was just seventeen at the time, and had cystic fibrosis, the decision was made to transport him to one of the two children's hospitals in Salt Lake. Officers called his parents (my sister and her husband), and they met him at the hospital.

Several weeks into his hospital stay, he and my sister were talking about the accident and the ride in the ambulance down the cayon, during which time he was fully alert, able to talk and cognizant of his surroundings. He (this 17-year-old kid who had never talked to his parents about God) told her that all the way to the hospital, he felt someone unseen holding him. He was scared and in tremendous pain, but he said he knew that someone, some force of some kind that he couldn't explain, was there with him. Today, three and a half years later, he's fine. He hasn't become religious, but He is convinved there is some kind of a "Higher Power" that is aware of us.

Two other "miracles" took place in my sister's life at about that same time -- within about four months of each other. One day, she told me, completely out of the blue, that she'd prayed for the first time in 35 years. Her prayer wasn't much. I think about all she said was, "Okay, God. You win. You're there." She didn't start practicing the religion of her youth again, nor is she even remotely interesting in seeking out any religion, but I think you'd have a pretty difficult time convincing her there's no God out there.

People can pooh-pooh spiritual things all they want. They can deny the existance of God and miraculous events to their heart's contents. I think that what you felt was real. You felt something because it existed. I'll leave it at that.

Last edited by Katzpur; 09-11-2011 at 09:11 AM..
 
Old 09-11-2011, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,459 posts, read 21,208,025 times
Reputation: 17675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, she was a twenty-year old girl with no training in mind-control. Was she pretty? Do you consider yourself to be unusually weak-willed in situations of this sort?

Let me tell you about my sister. She was raised LDS, just like me. Our parents were probably more liberal and free-thinking than the average Mormon parents, and they endouraged us not to just accept everything we heard taught in church without giving it some serious consideration. Neither of us was discouraged from questioning and if we doubted the veracity of something we'd been taught, it was okay.

I remained a member, but my sister chose at about the age of 18 to have nothing more to do with the Church. For about 35 years, she considered herself to be an agnostic, but strongly leaned towards atheism. Her husband was a strong atheist. They had two sons, now ages 20 and 17. Neither God, nor religion, nor anything spiritual is ever even mentioned in their home.

Well, about three and a half years ago, her oldest son was driving up the interstate which winds through the mountains east of Salt Lake City heading towards Wyoming. He lost control of the car and rolled it four times, breaking his neck in several places, but miraculously (or whatever an atheist would want to call it ) not severing his spinal cord. Since he was just seventeen at the time, and had cystic fibrosis, the decision was made to transport him to one of the two children's hospitals in Salt Lake. Officers called his parents (my sister and her husband), and they met him at the hospital.

Several weeks into his hospital stay, he and my sister were talking about the accident and the ride in the ambulance down the cayon, during which time he was fully alert, able to talk and cognizant of his surroundings. He (this 17-year-old kid who had never talked to his parents about God) told her that all the way to the hospital, he felt someone unseen holding him. He was scared and in tremendous pain, but he said he knew that someone, some force of some kind that he couldn't explain, was there with him. Today, three and a half years later, he's fine. He hasn't become religious, but He is convinved there is some kind of a "Higher Power" that is aware of us.

Two other "miracles" took place in my sister's life at about that same time -- within about four months of each other. One day, she told me, completely out of the blue, that she'd prayed for the first time in 35 years. Her prayer wasn't much. I think about all she said was, "Okay, God. You win. You're there." She didn't start practicing the religion of her youth again, nor is she even remotely interesting in seeking out any religion, but I think you'd have a pretty difficult time convincing her there's no God out there.

People can pooh-pooh spiritual things all they want. They can deny the existance of God and miraculous events to their heart's contents. I think that what you felt was real. You felt something because it existed. I'll leave it at that.
I just have to comment on this post...The above post is a perfect example of God touching us, all of us, any of us..
I believe that in His way and in His time, He will break the barriers and burdens of man's religion from us and make us aware that HE IS..
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Old 09-11-2011, 11:12 AM
 
9,107 posts, read 4,530,018 times
Reputation: 3727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, she was a twenty-year old girl with no training in mind-control. Was she pretty? Do you consider yourself to be unusually weak-willed in situations of this sort?

Let me tell you about my sister. She was raised LDS, just like me. Our parents were probably more liberal and free-thinking than the average Mormon parents, and they encouraged us not to just accept everything we heard taught in church without giving it some serious consideration. Neither of us was discouraged from questioning and if we doubted the veracity of something we'd been taught, it was okay.

I remained a member, but my sister chose at about the age of 18 to have nothing more to do with the Church. For about 35 years, she considered herself to be an agnostic, but strongly leaned towards atheism. Her husband was a strong atheist. They had two sons, now ages 20 and 17. Neither God, nor religion, nor anything spiritual is ever even mentioned in their home.

Well, about three and a half years ago, her oldest son was driving up the interstate which winds through the mountains east of Salt Lake City heading towards Wyoming. He lost control of the car and rolled it four times, breaking his neck in several places, but miraculously (or whatever an atheist would want to call it ) not severing his spinal cord. Since he was just seventeen at the time, and had cystic fibrosis, the decision was made to transport him to one of the two children's hospitals in Salt Lake. Officers called his parents (my sister and her husband), and they met him at the hospital.

Several weeks into his hospital stay, he and my sister were talking about the accident and the ride in the ambulance down the cayon, during which time he was fully alert, able to talk and cognizant of his surroundings. He (this 17-year-old kid who had never talked to his parents about God) told her that all the way to the hospital, he felt someone unseen holding him. He was scared and in tremendous pain, but he said he knew that someone, some force of some kind that he couldn't explain, was there with him. Today, three and a half years later, he's fine. He hasn't become religious, but He is convinved there is some kind of a "Higher Power" that is aware of us.

Two other "miracles" took place in my sister's life at about that same time -- within about four months of each other. One day, she told me, completely out of the blue, that she'd prayed for the first time in 35 years. Her prayer wasn't much. I think about all she said was, "Okay, God. You win. You're there." She didn't start practicing the religion of her youth again, nor is she even remotely interesting in seeking out any religion, but I think you'd have a pretty difficult time convincing her there's no God out there.

People can pooh-pooh spiritual things all they want. They can deny the existance of God and miraculous events to their heart's contents. I think that what you felt was real. You felt something because it existed. I'll leave it at that.
Interesting. Your nephew had his spiritual experencience without a religious background, practice, or training. I think many people pooh-pooh spiritual things, but as many accept a spiritual matter of some type but pooh-pooh devices organized religions demand to connect with a god, spirit, force, whatever.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 11:27 AM
 
18,856 posts, read 30,469,841 times
Reputation: 25990
Latter Day Saints are good folks. Like most other church going folks. I grew up Mormon, and then, just really was not into the whole sprituality, mysticism, and social hypocrisy that exists in all religions...and choose not to participate in organized religion, for personal reasons.

I know a friend, who is Navajo, and LOVES the Mormon church, he states unequivocally, that the Mormon church saved his life. He is very devout, went on a mission, and is very motivated in his chruch callings. Organized religion is very important to him, and the social connections he has made are also part of his life. I doubt he has intricately studied all Mormon church doctrine. He just likes this particular social group, and identifies with the values of the church and members. That is good enough for him.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 06:09 PM
 
1,245 posts, read 1,781,658 times
Reputation: 1533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
I just have to comment on this post...The above post is a perfect example of God touching us, all of us, any of us..
I believe that in His way and in His time, He will break the barriers and burdens of man's religion from us and make us aware that HE IS..

Assuming God is a man is sexist.....



Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper12 View Post
Latter Day Saints are good folks.

From the one's I have met so far I would have to, for the most part, agree with this statement.


MikeyKing...

What are you seeking? You state Mormonism is an alternate form of Christianity, are you looking for an abstract version of Christianity? Are you looking to become an affirmed or reaffirmed Christian?

Or are you seeking spirituality to avoid slipping into what you state as the cynical attitude and behavior that can potentially befall the Atheist?

If you are seeking spirituality to avoid cynicism you might explore avenues like Unitarianism or Quakerism in addition to Christ based religions, they may provide what you need without alot of additional elements that you do not.

But of course if you seek a Christian religion Mormonism is certainly a viable option. Do you wish alot of social interaction , sense of community and support in a religion? Or do you wish to take your religion or spirituality "Ala Carte" so to speak, and are prepared to provide community and social support more on your own.

Mormonism offers a bucketful of support and community from Ward functions and parties to Bishop's storehouses and fellow chruch members who are there to help you in a potential time of need (of course you will be expected to help others, it's a two way street) there are singles Wards and functions that make it easier to meet a mate (but you "age out" of the singles Ward pretty early, around age 30 or so I think). It truly is a lifestyle religion tha can encompass most or all aspects of your life.

Just some points to think about.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 10:10 PM
 
2,670 posts, read 3,553,324 times
Reputation: 1010
Well like hueff,katz,and chango I tend to add my 2 cents to these threads also,so....After being a bit of a religious skeptic my whole life I joined the lds church in my mid 40's.I didn't even meet a missionary until after I started attending the church,I was a bit of an 'internet investgator' for a long time and just showed up at my local ward one sunday...and have been there most sundays ever since.I don't feel like repeating my whole story,it can already be found in multiple posts,but I just wanted to say that I found the lds church to be more positive and logical[to me] than other christian churches in many areas and have found it to be a net positive in my life......even if I am still a bit of a religious skeptic.

It isn't anymore cultish or weird than any other church i've been around.There are a lot more church related activities than at most other churches but ,at least at my ward,there isn't the pressure to attend things that some on here always allude to.

Of course the missionaries would like you to get baptized......if you were volunteering two years of your life to share something you believe in,you would likely hope that some people would see things your way too.I don't think however that the average missionary gets his wish through door knocking...most converts in my area are already relatives or friends of people in the ward....and there really aren't a lot of them.

People in the church span a fairly broad in their opinions on a lot of things.There are 'bible literalists' and many who are not,[like me].I've found them to generally be a great group of people,regardless of whether we agree on everything or not.
 
Old 09-12-2011, 04:27 AM
 
34,541 posts, read 8,904,414 times
Reputation: 4796
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyking View Post
As I say don't, never have and never will believe in any religion, political system, new age belief system, organisation - I don't truly believe ANYONE REALLY believes in Religion in its current form - Even the Pope - Behind even the most sincere human being we are all Humans with good and bad thoughts.

For example - if someone wrote a book about someone 300 years ago who rose from the dead and performed Miracles - It would be greeted as nonsense, in fact many people so sceptical in the daily lives - but at the same time are religious - how can you be diserning and shut out other religions, but only believe yours as the true belief. Just as we have people into self help systems like the secret, or people who are workaholics and worship the corporate world- They will put there work before family, personal ethics and there life revolves around it - they might claim not to be religious but there just the same as religious types except its a different kind of belief system - Just as we have Political types who argue that Free Market Capitalism is the only way forward, the left who argue that redistribution of wealth is the only way fair way to do it, or economists who think of human behaviour can be controlled and managed with financial incentives and punishments.

These are all just belief systems - No one is more valid or important than the other.

I think we all have spiritual side to us - Where we believe that there is more to our lives than, and we not just animals who live and die. Perhaps its healthy to have a belief system.

Anyway my point was this chance encounter sort of lifted my spirits.
There is a lot of stuff that 'lifts our spirits'. Some see that as an encounter with 'god' and I see it as something in the human mind. Who really knows? I have to admit that my atheism is really directed at the man - made inventions and their interference in others' affairs. But then perhaps the world would be a lot poorer without their art, music, architecture, ceremonies and festivals. What has atheism provided? It's true that is not what it is intended to do, but then, if religion does it?

While I may take severe issue with the basics of these religions, there are surely some very likeable people involved with it. Mind I sometimes feel like suggesting that you try announcing that you are no longer a believer (especially if you were one) and see what happens - but then you could expect the same as a lapsed atheist
 
Old 09-12-2011, 11:50 AM
 
1,081 posts, read 1,700,623 times
Reputation: 1495
Well now she wants to meet up again, I gave her my phone no - Presumably to talk about the book of Mormon.

Can't seem to get her out of my head, like we connected - perhaps I am being "love bombed" or something - should I be worried?
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