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Old 09-19-2011, 01:27 PM
 
2,958 posts, read 2,255,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
I simply go by the established defintions and observe what I see people who call themselves Atheists say most of the time.

A friend of mine says he is an atheist by choice, an agnostic by necessity. What he means by that is that he cannot prove a diety of some kind doesn't exist but he does not reason that any actually does.

While all those studies might be worth considering a person who believes that it is possible a diety exists is not necessarily by definition an agnostic.

A person can contemplate the idea and possibility of something and not believe that the idea is true.

Even Dawkins contemplates the idea, and most rejects the assertions of religious thought, but that doesn't mean he is agnostic.


By definition, an Atheist can contemplate deities all day long, but until they actually believe one exists, they are not agnostic.

An agnostic by definition believes some kind of supernatural supreme entity exists, they just usually make no statement that they can prove it or that anyone else is required to believe as they do for any reason.

That is my thoughts on the matter anyway.
That more be your definition of which you would like imposed but it is not the mainstream definition of agnostism and to continue to foster that mindest is purposely disingenous to say the least

Have a day.

 
Old 09-19-2011, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,904,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Do you think the "majority rules" was correct when blacks were being discriminated against in your country years ago?

Well your certainly right about that. Its a judgement call, we have that right to go with the majority- when we agree with it.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 01:43 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,685,493 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest View Post
That more be your definition of what you would like imposed but it is not the mainstream definition of agnostism and to continue to foster that mindest is purposely disingenous to say the least

Have a day.

I could be wrong, but it serves no purpose to declare something I said were my thoughts on the matter disingenuous. Nothing I have stated would indicate that I am doing nothing more that discussing the matter at hand.

Correct me if I am wrong, but oddly enough I think I should be able to cite my thoughts simply by looking into the dictionary.

Quote:
a·the·ism   /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
There is nothing in that definition that can be construed as saying that if an Atheist thinks about God, then they must believe in one or acknowledge that something must be there.

Quote:

ag·nos·tic   /ægˈnɒstɪk/ Show Spelled
[ag-nos-tik] Show IPA

–noun
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
3. a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic: Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.

I do not see an Atheist who contemplates the idea of God has held to the idea that the ultimate cause is God. I would also suggest that Atheists actually believe that the nature of things is knowable, whether we know it all at this point and time or not.


So, if some weblink tries to suggest that someone contemplating the thought or idea of something equates to a belief, it is probably that that is more likely to impose something that is not correct just as mickiel is doing here when offering "definitions".
 
Old 09-19-2011, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,904,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
The statement being countered was
" And I disagree with your suggestion that there are millions of Atheist"
"The link I posted showed both atheists and agnostics which is why I also allowed the numbers to be reduced by almost any desired percentage.(being reasonable and even using those given by Mickiels reference)
That still would show that there are,indeed,millions of atheists.

Well thinking back old cold, I was wrong about that, and you were correct, even excluding Agnostics, there are millions if you use a worldwide percentage.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,904,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post

Your point here attempts to make the case that Atheists only exist because God exists, but you not only misunderstand atheism you self define things as it is convenient, ignoring where your arguments do not match.

.

Well I agree, I do believe that Atheist only exist because God exist.

Not only Atheist, but all things exist because God exist.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,904,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Personally my thought processes aren't governed by some binary code so those processes weren't "programed" at the factory but rather socialized over many years of parental and social tutelage. After years of being taught that something is a fact and years of being taught one set of "facts" which don't seem to jibe with other sets of facts one does either one of three things, you just keep accepting what mommy and daddy taught you, you modify those beliefs so that they be reconciled or you just come to the conclusion (the correct one in my opinion) that the facts are clearly in favor of rejecting propositions one and two. For the life me I can't understand why theist can understand this.

Neither of my parents taught me what I believe. It is God who manipulates the direction of people to accept or reject things.

Thats one of the things that a God can do.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,038 posts, read 30,691,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Neither of my parents taught me what I believe. It is God who manipulates the direction of people to accept or reject things.

Thats one of the things that a God can do.
\

That I do not believe, because you have already said that your mother had a strong faith in god, and that is where your belief was born.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 02:02 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,685,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Well I agree, I do believe that Atheist only exist because God exist.

Not only Atheist, but all things exist because God exist.

Of course, if you already believe God is the cause of all things, then you might come to that conclusion.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,904,353 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
\

That I do not believe, because you have already said that your mother had a strong faith in god, and that is where your belief was born.

This is one of many disagreements I have with christians, you just think like them in this area. I believe it is God who gives humans belief, real belief is born from God, not other humans. Now I can simply prove this with the bible, but it is meaningless to you.

If you could see the bible, I would start by showing you this verse; Philippians 1:29;" For to you it has been granted, for Christ sake, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for his sake."

Here it is crystal clear that God " Grants and Gives the ability and will to believe in him." To the human. I know you don't believe this, but I certainly do. My belief was granted and given to me by God, not my parents.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,904,353 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Of course, if you already believe God is the cause of all things, then you might come to that conclusion.

" Might" come to that conclusion, no, its confidently comming to that conclusion. I don't have an " Elephant mind"; you can train an elephant to stay tied to a 6 inch pole from its youth, and even when is bigger, it won't try to tear away. Even though it has the strength to. I know, and know that I know, that God is the deliberate cause of all things; both small and large in the universe.

Evolution suggest that all things began small in the universe and expanded. That is flawed reasoning. The universe couldnot contain itself in smallness, too many problems would have challanged that smallness.
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