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Old 09-16-2011, 05:43 AM
 
Location: OKC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill Uhm, no.
I'm not a big believer in the pleasure principle.
My theory is that perfection does not exist, therefore some "evil" things are necessary.
The whole point of my argument was that God wasn't perfect. Apparently you agree, since you don't believe perfection exist.
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Old 09-16-2011, 08:11 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
Quote:
The whole point of my argument was that God wasn't perfect. Apparently you agree, since you don't believe perfection exist.
Let me put it this way: with perfection there is no need to grow which makes life in general an impossibility.
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill Let me put it this way: with perfection there is no need to grow which makes life in general an impossibility.
This is an excellent way to explain it, Tricky, especially since the word in the Bible translated as "perfect" actually means mature. The entire milieu of life within our reality is based on evolution and maturation. Life is change. Nothing is created fully evolved or fully mature.
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Old 09-16-2011, 12:47 PM
 
118 posts, read 94,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
If God had done nothing, never created a world, never created an angel, if God had simply sat on his hands in contemplation, no evil would exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post

Yet, now evil exists, due entirely to the system you believe God created.

If God is responsible for creating a system that produces evil, then he is responsible for increasing evil.

Could anyone argue that Hitler wasn't responsible for the evils the system he created produced?

If not, how could one argue that God is not responsible for the evils the system he created produced?



(Just for clarification for others, I am only demonstrating the inconsistency of mainline theistic logic, I don't actually believe a God exist.)

(Edit: I never argued that, if God exists, I would want free will. In fact, if God exist and I could push a button to do away with my free will, I may just do that.)



Boxcar, I will try to address your points. Forgive me, but I don't know how to do the fancy quotations. First, you state that God didn't have to create a system such as this. Right. So what? Evil wouldn’t exist, but nor would anyone else exist... nor would all of the countless good things exist.


“If God is responsible for creating a system that produces evil, then he is responsible for increasing evil."

This is completely illogical. First off, the system does not HAVE to create evil... humankind has chosen to open the door to evil, and hence it has "increased." What you are trying to do is project all of the mistakes of humankind onto God (that you do not believe exists). Additionally, if I am responsible for creating a car for consumers to drive, I give them a gas pedal, which allows them to alternate speed. They can either CHOOSE to obey the law, or NOT. If someone decides to end their life and floors the car into oncoming traffic, thus killing themselves and innocent bystanders, is the creator of the vehicle RESPONSIBLE for the poor choice of the driver?


"Could anyone argue that Hitler wasn't responsible for the evils the system he created produced?

If not, how could one argue that God is not responsible for the evils the system he created produced?"


What was the intent of Hitler's system? What was the intent of God's system? The first was a system created to intentionally murder and assert dominance over the “lesser” people of the world in order to promote the rise of the Aryan Race. The second was one of redemption, of a grand story woven throughout history, and one that culminated in God coming down to his creation and dying in their place. Hitler's system clearly had a different end goal. Hopefully, at least in this much… we can agree.

"(Just for clarification for others, I am only demonstrating the inconsistency of mainline theistic logic, I don't actually believe a God exist.)"

Perhaps this is the most ironic thing of all. You do not believe in a god, yet you repeatedly use the world "evil." What you are doing is smuggling in theistic principals in order to build a case against God. I have been cooperative in dialogue, but really, prior to starting this dialogue, I could have easily asked you to explain on what grounds you call something "evil" in one breath while in another stating you do not believe a god exists. If you do not have sufficient grounds, then you have no business challenging the idea of a moral god.

Last edited by Baylorguy; 09-16-2011 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 09-16-2011, 01:10 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,585,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
Boxcar, I will try to address your points. Forgive me, but I don't know how to do the fancy quotations. First, you state that God didn't have to create a system such as this. Right. So what? Evil wouldn’t exist, but nor would anyone else exist... nor would all of the countless good things exist.


“If God is responsible for creating a system that produces evil, then he is responsible for increasing evil."

This is completely illogical. First off, the system does not HAVE to create evil... humankind has chosen to open the door to evil, and hence it has "increased." Additionally, if I am responsible for creating a car for consumers to drive, I give them a gas pedal, which allows them to alternate speed. They can either CHOOSE to obey the law, or NOT. Simply put, if someone decides to end their life and floors the car into oncoming traffic, thus killing themselves and innocent bystanders, is the creator of the vehicle RESPONSIBLE for the poor choice of the driver?


"Could anyone argue that Hitler wasn't responsible for the evils the system he created produced?

If not, how could one argue that God is not responsible for the evils the system he created produced?"


Again, this is just woeful logic. What was the intent of Hitler's system? What was the intent of God's system? The first was systems created to intentionally murder and assert dominance over the “lesser” people of the world. The second was one of redemption, of a grand story woven throughout history, and one that culminated in God coming down to his creation and dying in their place. It's borderline offensive trying to draw a parallel as poorly thought out as this... Hitler's system clearly had a different end goal. Hopefully, at least in this much… we can agree.

"(Just for clarification for others, I am only demonstrating the inconsistency of mainline theistic logic, I don't actually believe a God exist.)"

Perhaps this is the most ironic thing of all. You do not believe in a God, yet you are making moral proclamations in all of your posts. What you are doing is smuggling in theistic principals in order to build a case against God.

Actually, I prefer the lack of fancy quotes.

It's a more refined way to comment. I still do the fancy quotes sometimes because it's easier, but when I have the time I try to write my essay the proper way.

Your car analogy fails because you assume incomplete knowledge upon the car maker, but complete knowledge upon God. The putative God would know pricesly that by making the car, making the driver, and putting the two together it would result in the death of an innocent stranger. This is far differrent than the car maker you alluded to, who had every reason to believe the drivers of his car were going to obey the law.

God created the world with full knowledge that he was creating evil people who would choose to do evil things. He did this because, for reasons unexplained, he liked free will more than he hated evil. So he used evil as a way to introduce free will. That was an immoral act.

Put yet another way, God created temptation and created humans with weak wills to resist the temptation. Now he can not evade responsbility for the evil he created.

As to your last point, I am only using your own premises to prove the inconsistency in your agrument. If God is omnipotent, and God is the creator, then God can not be morally perfect - otherwise their would be no evil in the world. But to be clear, I don't believe an omnipotent God exists.
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Old 09-16-2011, 01:43 PM
 
118 posts, read 94,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Actually, I prefer the lack of fancy quotes.

It's a more refined way to comment. I still do the fancy quotes sometimes because it's easier, but when I have the time I try to write my essay the proper way.

Your car analogy fails because you assume incomplete knowledge upon the car maker, but complete knowledge upon God. The putative God would know pricesly that by making the car, making the driver, and putting the two together it would result in the death of an innocent stranger. This is far differrent than the car maker you alluded to, who had every reason to believe the drivers of his car were going to obey the law.


God created the world with full knowledge that he was creating evil people who would choose to do evil things. He did this because, for reasons unexplained, he liked free will more than he hated evil. So he used evil as a way to introduce free will. That was an immoral act.



As to your last point, I am only using your own premises to prove the inconsistency in your agrument. If God is omnipotent, and God is the creator, then God can not be morally perfect - otherwise their would be no evil in the world. But to be clear, I don't believe an omnipotent God exists.
If I am the creator of the car I realize that, just as the car has the ability to be used for its preferred purpose, it can also be used for something else. I don't have to have complete knowledge to realize the car can be used for something other than its intended purpose. Tell me then, what would "Complete" knowledge look like in the context of the car maker? He or she knows the car inside and out, and realizes there are various outcomes as to how it can be used.

To be clear, God did not "create evil people." People are image bearers of God, and made in the image of God. You also say "He used evil to introduce free will." This just demonstrates an ignorance of Christian doctrine. If you are going to claim to understand the mind of God, at least get it right in the context of doctrine. What God created in the beginning was GOOD... evil started spreading once humankind exercised free will and chose to do something they were ordered not to do. Hence, God did not create evil people, he created people with the capacity to choose evil, but it was still their ultimate choice on what they would choose.

"Put yet another way, God created temptation and created humans with weak wills to resist the temptation. Now he can not evade responsbility for the evil he created."

Now you are just playing word games. You are substituting "tempation" for "free will." Go back to my original post. If I can pose just one potential reason as to why God could have a moral reason to create the universe the way he did, then the impact of your point is greatly reduced... and becomes more of a game of probabilities. I already presented a reasoning as to the possiblity of God having morally sufficient reasons to carry out creation as he did, so I will say nothing more to this point.

"As to your last point, I am only using your own premises to prove the inconsistency in your agrument. If God is omnipotent, and God is the creator, then God can not be morally perfect - otherwise their would be no evil in the world. But to be clear, I don't believe an omnipotent God exists."

But of course, you have no business proving the alleged inconsistency with my argument if you have no business calling something evil versus calling something good. You cannot borrow from the worldview you are attemping to debunk. If that is not irony, I simply do not know what is. Additionally, refer back to my original post. I posed an argument as to why God would have morally sufficient reasons to create the universe as he did. You did not acknowledge it, so I simply do not accept the "inconsistencies" in my arguments.

Last edited by Baylorguy; 09-16-2011 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 09-16-2011, 01:54 PM
 
118 posts, read 94,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Yes, that is true. Nowhere in the bible does it say that life would be problem free, but there are some great promises/observations that are made such as: "I've NEVER seen the righteous forsaken nor his children begging for bread," "If your earthly fathers can give gifts, how much more will you heavenly father give to you," "Obey your mother and father so that you may live long on the earth," "Ask ANYTHING in my name and it shall be granted," "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all other things shall be added on to you" and so on. All of these "promises" lead to an apparent false notion that there is this god out there REALLY concerned with the utmost well-being of those who serve him. The thought of a "child of god" being struck dead by lightning goes contrary to what "good" is perceived to be in any context.


Also, we need to read verses in context. For instance, when the Bible says "Obey your mother and father so that you may live long on the earth" it is not guaranteeing a long life. It is essentialyl saying take heed of the wisdom of your parents. If your parents tell you not to run in front of a horse, don't do it. Jesus also goes on record on chopping off your right hand if it causes you to sin. Of course he didn't mean it literally, but was saying to flee from anything, do everythign in your power, to avoid that which causes you to sin.


Now, despite me saying this, I need to qualify something that touches on what nimchimpsky stated earlier. I am no a believer but I do not implicate ANY god in the events of the world because I don't believe any of those we know of are not just anything more than the constructs of men's minds or hands. As a result, I am well aware that the atrocities, nonsensical commands, primitive ideas/concepts and mythical stories meant for another time and culture are nothing more than the creation of men based on how they saw and interpreted the world and visible universe around them at that time. Throwing a "god" or gods in amongst their ignorance does NOT clarify anything (at least not for me). Yet, let's say there was such a god and let's say the biblical god IS actually the correct version of the god concept and (at this point in the evolution of religious thought) he is good, perfect, doting, well meaning toward his people and trying to impress unbelievers with his love toward his people, how does sending a bolt of lightning to strike down one of his worshippers who was trying to save the lives of others a "good" thing?


These are good points, but we need to put them into the context of the Christian doctrine (mainly I think what the thread was about). All throughout the Bible there is a concept of righting the wrongs, and there is a redemptive plan. People of antiquity were absolutely terrified of death, because there was no answer. When a person dies, a person dies, and that is it. Jesus came and conquered death, hence "Death, oh were is thy sting?" As you rightfully admitted, the Bible makes it clear there will be tribulations in this life... but it promises to right all of the wrongs, and this will be done once the resurrection occurs. Now... I know I will be accused of throwing in the eternity card, but since you used Bible verses, I felt it was only fair

I appreciate your honesty. I will simply say that God did not "send a bolt of lighting." The laws and constants of nature are in place, and the lightining struck without the hand of God ordering it to do so.
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:27 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
The laws and constants of nature are in place, and the lightining struck without the hand of God ordering it to do so.
So god has no control over nature or he chose not to intervene and allowed this to happen?
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Old 09-17-2011, 05:29 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
Quote:
So god has no control over nature or he chose not to intervene and allowed this to happen?
Like Einstein sayz: God doesn't play dice.
And I'm sure the lifeguard new the risk of getting hit by lightning in wide open areas.

Anywayz, believing in God does not mean that your life will be free of risks.
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Old 09-17-2011, 10:38 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Anywayz, believing in God does not mean that your life will be free of risks.
You are indeed correct, BUT one of the selling points Christians will often make or imply is that serving god has it's PRESENT benefits, one being protection and safety. In fact, I am wiling to wager that protection and safety (for self and family) is in the top 5 of most Christian prayers requests or the top 3.
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