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Old 09-12-2011, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,424,682 times
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Since some here are questioning my scholarship, I feel the need to defend myself. In during research, I value original sources best, recognizing that even original sources are biased (no source is unbiased). But, when you can find multiple, independent sources all saying the same thing and what they are saying runs counter to their bias (they are saying something negative about a person they are consistently faithful to, or something positive about their enemy), then I find that rather credible. So, in the quotes below, I will try to point out whether the author of the original source was always a friend to Joseph, or someone who turned their back on Joseph.

Now, some people have already pulled together some quotes from original sources. I will quote them if they did a great job, but know that whenever possible I have gone to the original source and verified that the quote is genuine. I encourage you to be skeptical, and go through the trouble to verify any quote you question in the original sources.

The following is a very well done collection of quotes organized by critics of Mormonism. But, don't dismiss it outright because of that; again verify these quotes for yourself and you will find that they are accurate. Joseph Smith Polygamy Sex LDS Mormon
Quote:
3. But did Joseph Smith obey the commandment and have sex with his wives?[mod]edited[/mod]
4. Did Joseph Smith father any children from his polygamous wives?[mod]edited[/mod]
- Stake President Angus Cannon also testified: "I will now refer you to one case where it was said by the girl's grandmother that your father
: LDSHISTORY.NET)

- Faithful Mormon Prescindia D. Huntington, who was Normal Buell's wife and simultaneously a "plural wife" of the Prophet Joseph Smith,Moderator cut: edited (Mary Ettie V. Smith, "Fifteen Years Among the Mormons", page 34; also Fawn Brodie "No Man Knows My History" pages 301-302, 437-39)

- Researchers have tentatively identified eight children that Joseph Smith may have had by his plural wives. [mod]edited[mod(]"Mormon Polygamy: A History" by LDS Historian Richard S. Van Wagoner, pages 44, 48- 49n3.)

There is another piece of evidence you might consider in examining Joseph Smith's sexual behavior.Moderator cut: edited ... the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty. ...- Joseph Smith Handwritten Letter,Moderator cut: edited http://www.xmission.com/~research/family/strange.htm
Well, what about DNA tests of claimed descendants of Joseph Smith? Again, I refer you to a source critical of Mormonism, but I invite you to check and see if what he is saying is accurate. I have checked and it is accurate. The Wives of Joseph Smith - FAQ's

There are letters and diaries from faithful contemporary LDS that show that Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church, did in fact take up to 33 plural wives,Moderator cut: edited (http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/library ). Moderator cut: edited
First, by way of introduction, let me refer you to the LDS Church's own genealogical site that they use for temple work. plural wives:Moderator cut: edited http://tinyurl.com/2uel67 . If you doubt my link perform a search for Joseph Smith at familysearch.org

If you will, permit me to refer the reader to the following site: http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/ I am not using this site as proof of anything.
OK, here comes evidence you might accept. Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner was married to Joseph while being married to her first husbandModerator cut: edited http://www.ldshistory.us/pc/merlbyu.htm




The best resource that will give you all the pertinent quotes with accurate citations to original sources and their locations is "In Sacred Loneliness: THE PLURAL WIVES OF JOSEPH SMITH" (Compton, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1997). You can buy it at the Church's own Deseret Bookstore.Moderator cut: edited

Let me suggest on final website. It is run by Mormon apologists who try to make Joseph's actions seem alright. They do not deny Joseph's polyandry, etc, because they know that they cannot refute the evidence. FAIR Topical Guide: Polyandry

For the best treatment of polyandry by a source you will trust, see: http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf You will need adobe acrobat reader to view it. This is from Mormon Apologetics central.

His plural marriages were not exclusively to take care of widows, for as you will see after you read the pdf I linked to, he married some women who already had husbands and they continued to live with their original husbands. In the Book of Mormon, the Lord says that the only reason he would permit polygamy is to "raise up seed" unto him. So, it is understood that the spouses will have sex so that they can have children. Joseph seemed to go with that because we do have record of him sleeping with his plural wives, some as young as 16 and 17, which I have shown thus far. Everyone knows that husbands sleep with their wives; it would be very exceptional if they did not. 19th century people were very polite and showed proper decorum, so we are lucky to have as many reports of sex as we have.

Then we have this from Mormon Enigma: EMMA HALE SMITH by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery. In the following passage they are quoting Helen Mar Kimball (a faithful saint to the end of her life):Moderator cut: edited

footnotes:

71. Helen Mar Kimball Whiteney, "Autobiography," 1881, LDS Archives

72. Catharine Lewis, statement, stanley S. Ivins collection, USHS. At least two other couples who were friends of Emma and Joseph - Cornelius and Permilla Lott, who ran the farm and Issac and Lucy Morley, who had offered the Smiths a home years earlier in Kirtland when Emma gave birth to the twins - would agree to give their daughters to Joseph in marriage. The Lotts recorded Melissa's marriage of Sept. 1843 in the family bible, LDS Arcives; the Morleys' daugher Cordelia Clista refused to marry Joseph but after his death agreed to be sealed to him for eternity. See also Andrew Ehat, "Joseph Smith's Temple Ordinances." Fowter Religion and Sexuality, PP150-151, discussses the tests of loyalty that JS asked of his followers.

The statement in red is as close as she could get to saying she had sex with him without being crude. She mentions her 15th summer. We know that they were married in May 1843, so she was definitely 14. When I think about it, since I was born in the winter, my first summer occurred before my 1st birthday, so my 15th summer would have been when I was 14.

Let me add that when I was a believer, I knew about all of this and was ok with it, because I thought whatsoever the Lord commands is right, no matter what our prejudices are. I mean God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac (or Ishmael if your Muslim). It was not until I thoroughly studied the Book of Abraham, that I realized that Joseph was a knowing fraud, that I realized that God never commanded him to marry and have sex with all those girls, and that is when I became outraged.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 09-13-2011 at 02:20 PM.. Reason: edited to comply with copyright rules..
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:34 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,571,871 times
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I would hope so. What other reason would he have for marrying them all if he didn't?
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Old 09-12-2011, 11:07 PM
 
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Well I think he likely did have sex with all or most of them.It is interesting to me however that dna testing has never proven that he impregnated any of them that we know of despite having had around 10 children or so with his original wife emma.I highly doubt that many would have denied it,at least among those who followed brigham youngs group to utah.It would have been like having elvis for a dad in the 1960's.Some did claim it but recent dna testing of some alleged decendents has shown that not to have been the case.Of course that doesn't mean it never happened .A lot of the 'evidence' doesn't prove he had sex with all/most of them,it merely shows that a lot of mormons claimed/heard/believed he did.I believe he did too although i'm not sure if any offspring actually resulted.
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:35 AM
 
34,562 posts, read 8,914,192 times
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That's interesting. I would have expected that J Smith DNA was pretty detectable, but maybe it's been bred out by Brigham Young DNA.

Any links to the tests? Given the reports about LDS covering up of unhelpful information, I should like to be sure there was no tinkering with the testing.
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Old 09-13-2011, 06:20 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,424,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
That's interesting. I would have expected that J Smith DNA was pretty detectable, but maybe it's been bred out by Brigham Young DNA.

Any links to the tests? Given the reports about LDS covering up of unhelpful information, I should like to be sure there was no tinkering with the testing.
Well, one of the studies is published here:
Perego, U.A., Ekins, J.E., and Woodward, S.R. (2008). Resolving the Paternities of Oliver N. Buell and Mosiah L. Hancock through DNA. John Whitmer Historical Association Journal, vol. 28 (128- ).

That journal is a Mormon interest journal that publishes professional articles. One of the authors, Scott Woodward was one of my Bishops at BYU and Ugo Perego, another author, was a guy in my our ward. So, I know them both well. In fact, I and Ugo were among the first participants to submit our DNA and family trees to the Scott Woodward-run Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation. I ate Thanksgiving dinner at Bishop Woodward's parent's house. I continue to be Ugo's Facebook friend.

Anyway, so I might be able to ask them a question if you have one for them. But, I have not read their articles, yet on this subject; I have only read the accounts reported in the newspaper. Since this study wasn't published in a DNA themed scientific journal, I don't know whether it has ever been peer-reviewed. I know tracing paternal DNA through the Y-chromosome is very well established, and tracing maternal mitochondrial DNA is well established. But, trying to trace genealogy through the other chromosomes that get all mixed up in every generation is quite a bit more difficult and I don't know that it is an established science, yet.
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Old 09-13-2011, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
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One reason why we may not have more living descendants of Joseph Smith is there may have been a number of abortions. I typically never bring this up because almost all of the sources are from those disaffected with Joseph or the Church, so their statements are aligned with their bias. That of course does not mean that they are not telling the truth; they might be, and the fact that it is being said by multiple independent people who could have knowledge of the events, at least warrants that we consider the possibility that what they are saying might be true. But, I will provide the statements and let you the reader make your own conclusions.
Mrs. [Sarah Pratt].: "You hear often that Joseph had no polygamous offspring. The reason of this is very simple. Abortion was practiced on a large scale in Nauvoo. they Mrs. H.: "Many little bodies of new-born children floated down the Mississippi..."
May 21, 1886, I had a fresh interview with Mrs. Sarah M. Pratt, who had the kindness to give me the following testimony additional to the information given by her in our interviews in the spring of 1885. .Moderator cut: edit.
. (Mormon Portraits I, von Wymetal, Wilhelm, SLC: Tribune Printing & Pub., 1886, page 59-62).





[CENTER] AFFIDAVIT OF HYRUM SMITH. [/CENTER]

On the seventeenth day of may, 1842, having been made acquainted with some of the conduct of John C. Bennett, which was given in testimony under oath before Alderman G. W. Harris, by several females, who testified that John C. Bennett endeavored to seduce them and accomplished his designs by saying it was right; that it was one of the mysteries of God, which was to be revealed when the people was strong enough in the faith to bear such mysteries -- that it was perfectly right to have illicit intercourse with females, providing no one knew it but themselves,Moderator cut: edit
(THE WASP. --- EXTRA. Nauvoo, Illinois, Wednesday, July 27, 1842.)



"Did you ever hear of abortion being practiced in Nauvoo?"
"Yes. There was some talk about Joseph getting no issue from all the women he had intercourse with. Dr. Foster spoke to me about the fact.Moderator cut: delete (Interview with Wm. Law. March. 30, 1887; THE DAILY TRIBUNE: SALT LAKE CITY, SUNDAY MORNING, JULY 31, 1887.)

Last edited by Miss Blue; 09-13-2011 at 11:21 AM.. Reason: snippets were too long..
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Old 09-13-2011, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,108 posts, read 2,424,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
I would hope so. What other reason would he have for marrying them all if he didn't?
So, you are ok with Joseph marrying and, by implication, having sex with his own foster daughters, and marrying and having sex with other men's wives, and marrying and having sex with girls as young as 14?

Aren't we outraged with Warren Jeffs, president of the RLDS, for doing very similar things?

I've actually looked at analyses of 1840's census, and it was not common to marry 14-year-olds back then, contrary to what some apologists try to claim.
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Old 09-13-2011, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,889,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
That's interesting. I would have expected that J Smith DNA was pretty detectable, but maybe it's been bred out by Brigham Young DNA.
Excuse me? How would that happen?

Quote:
Any links to the tests?
Well, there's the almighty wiki's article, Children of Joseph Smith. There's also The Children of Joseph Smith and DNA Research.

Quote:
Given the reports about LDS covering up of unhelpful information, I should like to be sure there was no tinkering with the testing.
Why would there be tinkering? The Church acknowledges each and every one of Brigham Young's children. Why would it try to cover up Joseph Smith's?
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Old 09-13-2011, 10:40 AM
 
34,562 posts, read 8,914,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Excuse me? How would that happen?
I don't know. I don't know whether it's even possible.

Quote:
Well, there's the almighty wiki's article, Children of Joseph Smith. There's also The Children of Joseph Smith and DNA Research.
Interesting.

Quote:
Why would there be tinkering? The Church acknowledges each and every one of Brigham Young's children. Why would it try to cover up Joseph Smith's?
Just I recalled one LSD poster on a previous forum who wasn't even aware that J. Smith had multiple wives. However, your links do seem to indicate that they are actually eager to identify Smith's descendents if they can.
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,889,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Just I recalled one LSD poster on a previous forum who wasn't even aware that J. Smith had multiple wives. However, your links do seem to indicate that they are actually eager to identify Smith's descendents if they can.
LSD posters are generally so high when they post that I wouldn't put much stock in what they say. The LDS ones are generally more reliable. (Yeah, you'd have to be a Mormon to pick up on that typo. )

Last edited by Katzpur; 09-13-2011 at 02:00 PM..
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