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Old 09-21-2011, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,660 posts, read 3,215,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I have to say that the rationale here adds up to no more than one of our poster's presenting absolutely everything, good, bad or indifferent, as evidence for a god. That is, nothing much.
I know, right? It's like demanding physical evidence for something that would necessarily exist outside of the realm in which physical evidence could exist.
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Old 09-21-2011, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,660 posts, read 3,215,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
And he didn't even present that in his own words.
And the young kangaroo in her pouch said, "Me too!".
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,599,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamelaBeurman View Post
They usually don't.

Is it me, or does there seem to be a common thread here. An inability to think for one's self.

Not to trash any one religion but i've noticed that, when presented with a question, many fall back on scripture as an answer. Is it a requirement that you give up the ability to think when you embrace a religion?
There are several reasons why Many if not most of us copy and paste when speaking of the Qur'an or Ahadeeth. For those who are life long Muslims it is because the written seems to be self explanatory and we can not embelish upon it or make it easier to understand. Also because most who are proficient in the Qur'an are often not able to translate the Qur'anic Arabic into English. The Qur'an does not translate very well into English as a result there is a tendency to use a verified translation such as Ali, Pickthal, Mohsin, Shukar, etc.

Reading the OP's original post I believe the OP did his own translation on word pad and corrected it to the best of his ability. I'm trying to back track it into the original Arabic. What I am finding is it seems to be a word for word translation and not an interpretation. but, it is still an understandable Translation.

The Qur'an is different from Christian scriptures as the Qur'an discusses all facets of life and is not a listing of cook book type instructions. It is not so much a book of do or don't, it is a study of learning the consequences of our choices. The simple Hadith the OP posted is a recommended way to eat and maintain good health. I believe the OP was pointing out that it was true 1400 years ago and remains true today. The amazing part is that it was seen as worth preserving. The ahadith are not part of the Qur'an and are not considered God's word. they are eye witness accounts of what Muhammad(PBUH) did and said.

The implication of all this being that if one item spoken 1400 years ago is still validated as being true today. This, while not proof, is evidence that there is truth in the ahadith and Qur'an.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:20 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,310,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamelaBeurman View Post
They usually don't.

Is it me, or does there seem to be a common thread here. An inability to think for one's self.

Not to trash any one religion but i've noticed that, when presented with a question, many fall back on scripture as an answer. Is it a requirement that you give up the ability to think when you embrace a religion?
Don't forget the you tube videos they post.

Yes I think when you have a religion that thinks they have the only truth and you need to get it right then you lose the ability to think.

Not all religions are like that because not all have a set theology or believe they have the only truth and an exclusive connection to G-d.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:24 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,310,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are several reasons why Many if not most of us copy and paste when speaking of the Qur'an or Ahadeeth. For those who are life long Muslims it is because the written seems to be self explanatory and we can not embelish upon it or make it easier to understand. Also because most who are proficient in the Qur'an are often not able to translate the Qur'anic Arabic into English. The Qur'an does not translate very well into English as a result there is a tendency to use a verified translation such as Ali, Pickthal, Mohsin, Shukar, etc.

Reading the OP's original post I believe the OP did his own translation on word pad and corrected it to the best of his ability. I'm trying to back track it into the original Arabic. What I am finding is it seems to be a word for word translation and not an interpretation. but, it is still an understandable Translation.

The Qur'an is different from Christian scriptures as the Qur'an discusses all facets of life and is not a listing of cook book type instructions. It is not so much a book of do or don't, it is a study of learning the consequences of our choices. The simple Hadith the OP posted is a recommended way to eat and maintain good health. I believe the OP was pointing out that it was true 1400 years ago and remains true today. The amazing part is that it was seen as worth preserving. The ahadith are not part of the Qur'an and are not considered God's word. they are eye witness accounts of what Muhammad(PBUH) did and said.

The implication of all this being that if one item spoken 1400 years ago is still validated as being true today. This, while not proof, is evidence that there is truth in the ahadith and Qur'an.
I would think that the cut and pasting would not be allowed as it is copyrighted material.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,599,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
I would think that the cut and pasting would not be allowed as it is copyrighted material.
The Qur'an and Ahadith are usually from Public domain. The translations by Ali and Pickthal are no longer covered by copyright. the Newer translations are usually copyrighted. However, a Muslim is not permitted to make a profit off of the Qur'an or Ahadith and at most can only charge the actual cost of publication and distribution. Even then if we can afford to do so we are to provide them, to whoever asks, for free. The Qur'an in Arabic is to be free or at most at cost, unless the buyer receiving it desires to pay and then the seller is not permitted to make a profit and to give any excess to charity. We are not permitted to give the Arabic Qur'an to anyone we have reason to believe will disrespect it. In other words we are not to give it to a non-Muslim or to anyone who does not know how to do wudu (Ablution) before touching it.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:57 PM
 
Location: around the way
656 posts, read 904,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We are not permitted to give the Arabic Qur'an to anyone we have reason to believe will disrespect it. In other words we are not to give it to a non-Muslim or to anyone who does not know how to do wudu (Ablution) before touching it.
Isn't that sort of counterproductive as far as conversion goes? Why would I convert before having a chance to take a look at the book for myself?

This is assuming that there's no compulsion to convert, which if I recall correctly is the ideal.
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Old 09-21-2011, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,599,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavemaster View Post
Isn't that sort of counterproductive as far as conversion goes? Why would I convert before having a chance to take a look at the book for myself?

This is assuming that there's no compulsion to convert, which if I recall correctly is the ideal.


Would you be able to read the Arabic? Any Muslim will gladly give you a translation of the Qur'an in your preferred language. We do not consider any translation to be the Qur'an. If we have reason to believe you would not disrespect an actual Qur'an (the original Arabic text) it would be permissible to give you one. Oddly the First Qur'an I ever had was the Arabic one. the person who gave it to me assumed I was Muslim as I was in Morocco and spoke Arabic. At the time I was unaware that I was not supposed to have it.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:34 AM
 
Location: around the way
656 posts, read 904,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Would you be able to read the Arabic? Any Muslim will gladly give you a translation of the Qur'an in your preferred language. We do not consider any translation to be the Qur'an.
I try to be respectful of all books, except for those written by Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If we have reason to believe you would not disrespect an actual Qur'an (the original Arabic text) it would be permissible to give you one. Oddly the First Qur'an I ever had was the Arabic one. the person who gave it to me assumed I was Muslim as I was in Morocco and spoke Arabic. At the time I was unaware that I was not supposed to have it.
Now that you mention it, a friend of mine who lived in Saudi Arabia for many years and converted once told me basically the same thing. When I told him I had a Qur'an he immediately corrected me and told me that I had a translation of a Qur'an.
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Old 09-22-2011, 02:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,599,869 times
Reputation: 7377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavemaster View Post
I try to be respectful of all books, except for those written by Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin.



Now that you mention it, a friend of mine who lived in Saudi Arabia for many years and converted once told me basically the same thing. When I told him I had a Qur'an he immediately corrected me and told me that I had a translation of a Qur'an.
We believe that the Arabic of the Qur'an which is spoken with Tajweed (A method of pronunciation in which each letter is enunciated) is the true word of Allaah(swt) and therefore the Qur'an.

Translations will always entail a touch of the translators interpretation, causing changes, although they may be close, they will not be the exact meaning of what was said.

One of the biggest causes of confusion comes from the translation of the word wali. It is usually translated into the English word Friend. But the concept of wali goes much deeper than the concept of friend. A wali is a friend who will serve as your protector and as your guide in following Islam. a person who believes as you do and who will strive to keep you from going astray. somebody who will help you in all ways yet be ready to admonish you if you go astray. This translation of wali as the English word friend causes much misunderstandings with non-Muslims in ayyats such as:

5:51 as translated by Yusuf Alil and Marmaduke Pickthal

[Pickthal 5:51] O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

[Yusufali 5:51] O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

The translation of wali as friends has made many non-Muslims believe we are prohibited to have Jews and Christians as friends. This has caused much misunderstanding. Perhaps it would have been best for translators to leave it as wali as the word has no equivalent meaning. Also I really doubt if any Jew or Christian would even want to be our wali as it would mean they would have to be Muslim to be our wali. there is no issue for us to have non-Muslims as friends in the English concept of friend, we just should not expect them to be our guides and protectors to be pious Muslims.
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