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Old 10-03-2011, 06:44 AM
 
35,207 posts, read 9,118,772 times
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One does get the feeling that slow grudging progress is made, the believer retreating and dragging the ever closing goalposts behind into a ever more closing gap for god which, if it ever entirely closes, just leaves them still insisting an invisible god for which there is no real need, no good evidence and no demonstrable input simply because they have been religiously brainwashed from birth.

It is not something to be proud of.
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Old 10-03-2011, 07:11 AM
 
570 posts, read 620,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
One does get the feeling that slow grudging progress is made, the believer retreating and dragging the ever closing goalposts behind into a ever more closing gap for god which, if it ever entirely closes, just leaves them still insisting an invisible god for which there is no real need, no good evidence and no demonstrable input simply because they have been religiously brainwashed from birth.

It is not something to be proud of.
Doubt is of an altogether contrary genus. It is not a habit, but the privation of a habit .
There is nothing more dreadful than the privation of a doubt.
It separates people.
It is a poison .
The Office- Michael Scott No God No - YouTube

Last edited by squall-lionheart; 10-03-2011 at 07:27 AM..
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Old 10-03-2011, 07:49 AM
 
5,463 posts, read 5,800,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
Every time I learn a new infromation about the DNA it increased my faith of Allah .
The inability to see anything aside from dogma you've been taught is a sign of brainwashing.

Quote:
Where did we see one species change into another ?
Observed Instances of Speciation

Quote:
How long did it take for humans to developed into our current form & how long will it take for us to change again ?
What's starting point are you talking about? The universe is about 13.7 billion years old, which is also how long it took for modern humans to develop.

How big a change are you looking for? There are novel mutations in humans that have developed as recently as a few hundred years ago.

Quote:
I said a common ancestor not Ape species .
A common ancestor between us and any modern ape would be an ape species. You literally do no understand the subject well enough to even ask questions correctly.

Quote:
I see .. You mean the missing fossil that not have been found ... yet
No, obviously fossils which have been found are not fossils which have not been found - Fossil Hominids: the evidence for human evolution. And none of that has anything to do with the classification of our last common ancestor with the rest of the apes.

Quote:
Because humans descendants from it !!!!!
You are aware that there are various ways for DNA to change between generations, no? I'm not even able to guess what sort of misunderstanding of science you might have to have asked this question, but feel free to elaborate.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,103,487 times
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Smile DNA = Evolution!

So. You agree that DNA is a marvelous thing. Good. Now briefly imagine that it did just form up on it's own (which scientists have now seen in the lab, BTW...) , being as simple as it actually is. By that very organization, no matter how simple, it was then poised to begin the inexorible process that lead to the vast and organized complexity (but still, made out of simple biochemical units) we see all around us. You can't call a lone Lego building block very complex, can you? But then, since the pieces do fit together conveniently, look what the simple mind of a kid can create with them!

Aka: just like DNA!

Google Images

turns into this...

Google Images

and....

Google Images

I mean, take the engine in a 747. In fact, it's only some alloys, rivets, screws, washers, pins and so on. Each element quite simple. Of course, it also doesn't replicate itself 20 million times in three days, with an option to mutate, re-assemble and try itself out as another version. Just like a "higher" animal (like an ape-man; us...) "is", the design's already so complete and well adapted, we having responded to so many environmental tests over time, that it's not so easy for any simple lone mutation to vastly improve it, or us, as was the case, obviously, when we were very simple organisms.

Such are the statistics of life, squall. When it's extremely simple in design, almost any change can be an improvement. Then, building upon those, or perhaps when several multi-organisms got together (read up on the once-unique and solitary mitochondria! It used to be it's own beastie, but found a nice warm home inside our cells...), you eventually get, voila! Higher organisms.

As well, I must say, at this point in your debating strategy, that I'm quite confused by your "logic". Have you changed boats mid-stream, as AREQUIPA seems to have detected? You clearly started out denying Evolution, but now you agree on DNA's built-in abilities, though you claim DNA is solely God's work and that God doesn't "brook" Evolution. DNA = Evolution, in case yah missed it!

So my Q: Why would He design DNA and then not let it do it's thing? I'm talking about the "thing" we can and do observe it doing in nature and in the lab? You still denying Evolution then? If so, you've boxed yourself into an uncomfortable corner! That's not a very comfy place to be! You'z gonna have to "admit" something here sooner or later.

May as well be "sooner" huh? Repeat after me: "Evolution's a fact, even if God intended it to happen."

There. That didn't hurt at all, did it?
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
8,692 posts, read 11,477,472 times
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Didn't really know where to stick this article, but it is interesting.

Figuring out the creation of life | Philly | 10/03/2011

from the article:

Quote:
I was also curious about Szostak's response to the abiogenesis question that readers keep posing: Did he have faith that this happened?
He looked puzzled for a moment. "Life wasn't here, and now it is," he said. "It had to have come about by a process."
I said I thought the creationists were accusing the scientists of acting on their own faith to assume it happened without God.
He replied that falling back on a supernatural explanation would be like giving up the inquiry. And there's no reason to give up a problem just because it's hard.
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:18 AM
 
570 posts, read 620,162 times
Reputation: 75

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
So. You agree that DNA is a marvelous thing. Good. Now briefly imagine that it did just form up on it's own (which scientists have now seen in the lab, BTW...)

It seems that we have not reached an understanding here !!!
It could be my fault .
Please read carfuly ...
I do not deny that DNA works on it's own ...
The question is does the fact that something is able to work on it's own denies the existence of a maker ?
This is the contention point here .
Quote:
being as simple as it actually is. By that very organization, no matter how simple, it was then poised to begin the inexorible process that lead to the vast and organized complexity (but still, made out of simple biochemical units) we see all around us. You can't call a lone Lego building block very complex, can you? But then, since the pieces do fit together conveniently, look what the simple mind of a kid can create with them!
I mean, take the engine in a 747. In fact, it's only some alloys, rivets, screws, washers, pins and so on. Each element quite simple.

Very good example ... I agree ...but you forgot that we can not make a Pillow from alloys, rivets, screws, washers, pins !!!!
Some conscious mind designed it & decided to put the right tools to make an engine wich are alloys, rivets ..etc ... not feather .
The Process is not mechanical ... it need a mind to designed it .
after that the engine can work on its own
Quote:
Of course, it also doesn't replicate itself 20 million times in three days, with an option to mutate, re-assemble and try itself out as another version. Just like a "higher" animal (like an ape-man; us...) "is", the design's already so complete and well adapted, we having responded to so many environmental tests over time, that it's not so easy for any simple lone mutation to vastly improve it, or us, as was the case, obviously, when we were very simple organisms.

This is a wonderful explanation of how DNA works ..etc , I really thank you for that & I have no objection exept for the following :
Quote:
and try itself out as another version

An improved version yes ... another .... No .
Quote:
when we were very simple organisms


Quote:
Such are the statistics of life, squall. When it's extremely simple in design, almost any change can be an improvement. Then, building upon those, or perhaps when several multi-organisms got together (read up on the once-unique and solitary mitochondria! It used to be it's own beastie, but found a nice warm home inside our cells...), you eventually get, voila! Higher organisms.

If we all came from one simple cell then how can a random process of an unconscious solitary mitochondria that found a nice warm home inside our cells was aple to produce that massive number of different organisms each operate according to a different system with a high precision arrangements ?
The problem is that you only look from one eye ( Science ) I look from two ( Religion & science ) .. The first till me how life began & who design the system & the laws .. The second explain to me how it works .
You see .. you are explaining how it works & that is great but still we have alot of things missing ... we still have alot of question marks that only can be answerd from the other eye ( Creater ) .
*Mosquitoes lay their eggs in the swamp .. each egg comes with a buoyancy bag ..till me where did it learne the laws of Archimedes to supply their eggs with bags to float ?
*Deserts trees produce light winged seeds to be aple to fly with the wind for miles to spread over large areas .. how did it learn that to make for itself these kind of flying seeds that can travel hundreds of miles in search of a suitable land for germination?
Does it think ?
*Those predatory plants that artifact trap to hunt & strange insect's how did it learn those tricks ?
Does it think ?
There are thousand & thousand of examples ...
It is clear that We are in front of a conscious mind that innovate causes of perpetuation and survival .. we can not imagine this without raising a creative mind .
Any other interpretation will remain imperfect and incomplete .
As for the similarties in living organisms configuration ... to you it means they all came from one cell , As for me it is the biggest proof of the oneness of God ( one creater of them all ) .
Quote:
As well, I must say, at this point in your debating strategy, that I'm quite confused by your "logic".

My logic said cells & plants have no mind ... yours say they do adding the word " but ..... " !!!
Quote:
Have you changed boats mid-stream, as AREQUIPA seems to have detected? You clearly started out denying Evolution, but now you agree on DNA's built-in abilities, though you claim DNA is solely God's work and that God doesn't "brook" Evolution. DNA = Evolution, in case yah missed it

So my Q: Why would He design DNA and then not let it do it's thing? I'm talking about the "thing" we can and do observe it doing in nature and in the lab? You still denying Evolution then? If so, you've boxed yourself into an uncomfortable corner! That's not a very comfy place to be! You'z gonna have to "admit" something here sooner or later.

May as well be "sooner" huh? Repeat after me: "Evolution's a fact, even if God intended it to happen."

Why do I get the feeling that you need me to say it soooo bad ?!!!!
Relaxman ... I never denies evolution from an Islamic point of veiw .
Ok
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Kenmore, WA
7,359 posts, read 6,246,541 times
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Personally, I don't think any of us have to explain our faith to another, unless we want to do so. If we do wish to share our faith with another, we also must give the other the same opportunity. In matters of faith, we all must agree to disagree, as required.

No one has the right to tell others what they can or cannot believe. It isn't anyone's business but our own.
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Old 10-06-2011, 06:05 AM
 
570 posts, read 620,162 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC

The inability to see anything aside from dogma you've been taught is a sign of brainwashing.
Since it is the truth then brain washing was the best thing that ever happened to me in my life .

Quote:
Where did we see one species change into another ?
Observed Instances of Speciation
That is just ....... " Talking " !!!
No one saw anything ...




Quote:
How long did it take for humans to developed into our current form & how long will it take for us to change again ?
What's starting point are you talking about? The universe is about 13.7 billion years old, which is also how long it took for modern humans to develop.
Who said anything about a starting point !!!
You are a professor in answering another question

Quote:
How big a change are you looking for? There are novel mutations in humans that have developed as recently as a few hundred years ago.
You mean like this ??


Quote:
A common ancestor between us and any modern ape would be an ape species. You literally do no understand the subject well enough to even ask questions correctly.
Yep ....
Like Ramapithecus - once widely regarded as the ancestor of humans, it has now been realized as a HOAX ...

Or maybe you mean Eoanthropus (Piltdown man) - a hoax based on a human skull cap and an orangutan's jaw.
It was widely publicized as the missing link for 40 years.
Piltdown Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And the list go on & on ....
I am wondring .. If Humans & Apes came from common ancestor then why they fake fossils to prove it ?!!!
Why does anyone fake fossils to prove a Fact Beyond Any Doubt as they say ?!!
It is like an organised criminal groups that fake fossils through modern history to prove Humans & Apes came from common ancestor..!!!
To me that raise a thousand question ..!!!
Quote:
No, obviously fossils which have been found are not fossils which have not been found - Fossil Hominids: the evidence for human evolution. And none of that has anything to do with the classification of our last common ancestor with the rest of the apes.
When you have a long history in fabricating evidence no one will believe you any more ...
Of curse I'm not referring to you ...
Quote:
You are aware that there are various ways for DNA to change between generations, no? I'm not even able to guess what sort of misunderstanding of science you might have to have asked this question, but feel free to elaborate.
Yes ... but not to the point that turns you from this :

To that :


Last edited by squall-lionheart; 10-06-2011 at 06:17 AM..
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Old 10-06-2011, 07:05 AM
 
5,463 posts, read 5,800,111 times
Reputation: 1803
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
Since it is the truth then brain washing was the best thing that ever happened to me in my life .
At least you understand what's been done to you. That's a good start.

Quote:
That is just ....... " Talking " !!!
No one saw anything ...
Specifically, what evidence in the links did you find questionable? Did you even read them?

Quote:
Who said anything about a starting point !!!
You asked how long it took humans to develop. How long is a measure from the start to the end of something. What starting point are you interested in?

Quote:
You mean like this ??
No. You're confusing fiction with reality. Not surprising for someone who is religious but still, try and stay on topic.

Quote:
I am wondring .. If Humans & Apes came from common ancestor then why they fake fossils to prove it ?!!!
Which fossils were faked, exactly, and who discovered that they weren't real?

Quote:
Yes ... but not to the point that turns you from this :
To that :
Prove it. Here's your big chance, don't blow it.
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Old 10-06-2011, 07:54 AM
 
Location: USA - midwest
5,945 posts, read 4,737,024 times
Reputation: 2606
Lightbulb Recent anti-Evolution Threads

Bottom line: reality is not a matter of opinion.

Creationists: nature will continue to evolve, with or without your approval.
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