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Old 10-26-2011, 04:57 AM
 
570 posts, read 731,102 times
Reputation: 76

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
How about returning to the topic of evolution?

Did you know that the same gene (BMP4) that is used to modify a Galapagos finches beak is also used to modify a chichlid fishes jaws? Two very different creatures half a world away from each other...Coincidence?

Did you know that the FOXP2 gene is what makes both human speech and bird's songs meaningful? Without it neither we nor birds could communicate...Coincidence?

Did you know that humans have about the same number of genes as a mouse? Not only that, but most are identical, but are used in different ways....Coincidence?
Did you know that the same genes that grow the neck of a mouse are identical to those that grow the neck of a giraffe? The genes in the giraffe are simply switched on for a longer period of time.

Genes are like words in a book...We do not need to invent new word to write different book....We just change the order of the words and the way they are used.

Do you understand how sexual selection plays a part in evolution? The peacock with the largest and finest display is the one who gets the hens. The peacock's display (tail) tells the female that he is the healthiest, as the tail is an exhausting thing to grow.
Of course there is no coincidence here ,That is what I alwayes said
All origins have the same components because the creater is the same .
If there were different Gods the components would have been different & If there was no God there wouldn't have been any regulations pursued by those non intlegent creatures to ensure their survival .
For you the existence of God requires his direct intervention in everything and a semblance of some kind of magic every single time .
For us, the existence of regulations the amazing complexity that found in almost all living organisms that discovered every day by science & scientists is the biggest proof of the existence of intelligent power behind it .
The existing of regulations requires a legislator and logic says you can not develop legislation without an intelligent mind .
There is no way to avoid that fact .

Last edited by squall-lionheart; 10-26-2011 at 05:21 AM..
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,502 posts, read 37,002,419 times
Reputation: 13972
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
Of course there is no coincidence here ,That is what I alwayes said
All origins have the same components because the creater is the same .
If there were different Gods the components would have been different & If there was no God there wouldn't have been any regulations pursued by those non intlegent creatures to ensure their survival .
For you the existence of God requires his direct intervention in everything and a semblance of some kind of magic every single time .
For us, the existence of regulations the amazing complexity that found in almost all living organisms that discovered every day by science & scientists is the biggest proof of the existence of intelligent power behind it .
The existing of regulations requires a legislator and logic says you can not develop legislation without an intelligent mind .
There is no way to avoid that fact .
I suppose one needs an intelligent mind to understand evolution...
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Old 10-26-2011, 01:28 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,421 posts, read 6,484,738 times
Reputation: 1775
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
The existing of regulations requires a legislator and logic says you can not develop legislation without an intelligent mind .
There is no way to avoid that fact .

Unfortunately, I know many of my state legislators, and I can confirm that much of the legislation they've written can hardly be described as the product of an intelligent mind.
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:24 AM
 
570 posts, read 731,102 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I suppose one needs an intelligent mind to understand evolution...
I am sure one needs a very simple mind to distinguishes between Windows software & Microsoft company
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
Unfortunately, I know many of my state legislators, and I can confirm that much of the legislation they've written can hardly be described as the product of an intelligent mind.
I believe you but I am sure you agree with me that it was not made by chance ...

Last edited by squall-lionheart; 10-27-2011 at 03:36 AM..
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Old 10-27-2011, 04:32 AM
 
570 posts, read 731,102 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Squall-L is obviously working from the assumption that everything is too ordered and perfect to be anything other than planned by an intelligence.

I am just beaing logical here !!!
Quote:
Even that would not avoid the argument that, given time, unplanned natural processes (called 'random or chance') could come to work in perfect order because anything else would simply not work.

"anything else would simply not work ..." !!
Exactly ...
That is why perfect order does not come from 'random or chance' ...
Just like you said : it would simply not work .
Place a cell in a suitable environment for a billion year and see if it can configure Various organisms like we have seen all over us today !!
Quote:
(1) a rock gets weathered, cracks, becomes unstable and crashed down in an avalanche. It all works in a perfect ordered way. Well of course it does. But nobody planned it.
(2) rocks on a beach become pebbles, then grit, then sand through being thrown up and worn down over aeons. They are all there all pretty much the same size and looking pretty shiny too. But it would be daft to say that somebody must have made it that way.

I agree ... but imagine that a million stone combine to make a shiny home would you still say the same thing ?
Try to look at the bigger picture here.
Quote:
(3) we get a tomato that grows near to two stems or two mushroom spores grow close together. The Tomato grows on each side of the stems and you have to do some cutting to extract it. the two mushrooms will blend into a composite. That all happens through natural known processes and like crystal -snowflake or tree formation, there is no reason to suppose that any mind is doing it.

No mind is doing it because that same mind give it the ability to make it grows that way ...
Try to expand your perception ...
Quote:
While the ecosphere, galaxy and universe are obviously huge, that is merely these (1) (2) and (3) processes in huge amounts. Bigness and complexity are not the point. Arguing that it is all perfect and ordered and works like a mechanical device is a misapprehension and misunderstanding of what the world, life and universe is and the forces that work it.

Believe me, I tried to understand how chance and random incidents can create a perfect ordered mechanical device but I failed ..
It contrary to reason and logic no matter what way you try to justify it to yourself .
Quote:
Thus all 'Watchmaker' arguments are false from the get - go because the representation of it all as a perfectly made precision machine is a misunderstanding of what we have.
Now as I have said before, I don't believe this will make an impression. That's not the point. Squall - L can believe whatever suits. All I am saying is that it's a waste of time putting the watchmaker argument to us because we know it's wrong at the start.

Why false & wrong ?
Is it because you dont have an answer ?
Yes, there is a difference in the way of working between the two but still, both require external intervention ...
Logic said it has to be made by someone & the question is still standing with out any answer :
Who ..
make ..
that watch ?
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Old 10-27-2011, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Florida
23,155 posts, read 26,072,600 times
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I don't understand this concept of perfectly ordered.
In relation to living creatures, since we are the ones to whom this is of any concern,if things are working perfectly' and that can only be done by design, then must it not follow that everything that is detrimental to life is by design?
What is 'perfect' about that?
A volcano erupting happens by a series of cause and effect events...all working together in an 'orderly' manner.
That it may destroy a thousand living creatures is purposeful and part of this perfect design ?

Oh yeah...I really want to love, adore and thank the god that designed this one!
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:28 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,502 posts, read 37,002,419 times
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Science is getting ever closer to discovering how life began...

Researchers at the University of Hong Kong observed stars at different evolutionary phases and found that they are able to produce complex organic compounds and eject them into space, filling the regions between stars. Discovery: Cosmic Dust Contains Organic Matter from Stars | Star Dust, Supernovas & Stellar Evolution | Meteorites & Complex Organic Compounds | Space.com
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:17 PM
 
570 posts, read 731,102 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
I don't understand this concept of perfectly ordered.
In relation to living creatures, since we are the ones to whom this is of any concern,if things are working perfectly' and that can only be done by design, then must it not follow that everything that is detrimental to life is by design?
What is 'perfect' about that?
A volcano erupting happens by a series of cause and effect events...all working together in an 'orderly' manner.
That it may destroy a thousand living creatures is purposeful and part of this perfect design ?

Oh yeah...I really want to love, adore and thank the god that designed this one!
We're not in heaven so that everything must be beautiful .
This life is not permanent it's only a temporary phase .
Think of it like an exam hall & tell me is it fair that the the one who Worked so hard treated equaly with the one who did not & both receive the same certificate ?
Of curse not ...
If those disasters, diseases and wars are the foundation in our lives I would of agree with you but they are not .
Most of the people around the world live with no wars & do not suffer from deadly diseases that Prevented them from going to work and exercises a normal life, disasters and wars are a minority .... However, even these wars that have passed we came out of it with alot of benefits
accrue to mankind & that proof God's mercy, even with human cruelty and human mistakes that caused those wars .
For an example : Spy satellites and rockets that have been invented for wars are the reason of the technological revolution that we enjoy now .
Suffering last an hour & prosperity extends for a thousand hour ..
Evil is the exception not the rule otherwise one human could not enjoy life even for one minute .
Most things in the universe are geared to serve people, Even the way that some plants growth looks like they were made to make it easier for us to reach their fruits etc ...so is that also random & coincidence ?!!!
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Florida
23,155 posts, read 26,072,600 times
Reputation: 27887
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
Most things in the universe are geared to serve people, Even the way that some plants growth looks like they were made to make it easier for us to reach their fruits etc ...so is that also random & coincidence ?!!!
Oh! You mean like the papaya I just cut down so I wouldn't need a 10 foot ladder to reach the fruit?
Or the 20 foot peach tree I used to have?
Guess you've never seen ladders against an apple tree,huh?
Or scratched the hell out of yourself picking raspberries.
Ah yes, great example of how well planned that all is for us
Got any other examples of things that were obviously tailor-made just for us humans?

Most of the people around the world live with no wars & do not suffer from deadly diseases that Prevented them from going to work and exercises a normal life, disasters and wars are a minority

Most do not suffer disasters?
So you just discount the millions that do?
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Old 10-30-2011, 04:50 AM
 
570 posts, read 731,102 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold
Oh! You mean like the papaya I just cut down so I wouldn't need a 10 foot ladder to reach the fruit?
Or the 20 foot peach tree I used to have?
Guess you've never seen ladders against an apple tree,huh?
Or scratched the hell out of yourself picking raspberries.
Ah yes, great example of how well planned that all is for us
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart
Even the way that some plants
I said some ...
I think I was wrong !!!
Let me corect it ...
Even the way that alot of plants
They are not buried ten feet under the ground or at unreachable high mountains !!!
If you can reach it by ladder then it consider reachable ...




Quote:
Got any other examples of things that were obviously tailor-made just for us humans?
Are you serious ?
Everything on earth was created to serve us & ensures our existence .
Rain , rivers, groundwater, wells, metals, sunlight, wood, fire , Animals , Plants ... etc ..
All those things were put to serve us .
Isn't ironic that our existence linked with one of the greatest pleasure( sex ) ?
Imagine that it was linked to an awful painful experience would we still exist ?
Why camel who is known of its strength & reliability of hot climate conditions exist originally in warm desert places in the world ?
Do you call all of that a random coincidence ?
All of those things can only be a selection of rational and intelligent minde ...
Quote:
Most of the people around the world live with no wars & do not suffer from deadly diseases that Prevented them from going to work and exercises a normal life, disasters and wars are a minority

Most do not suffer disasters?
Quote:
So you just discount the millions that do?
Why you think I do ?!!!!
All I said was Most of the people around the world do not suffer disasters ...
How could that be discount to those who do ?!!

Last edited by squall-lionheart; 10-30-2011 at 06:13 AM..
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