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Old 09-27-2011, 12:02 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,049,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post

I short-editted your excellent post, GCST. (BTW, you, rather than some other once-prolific on these fora, should have that PhD attached to your name. I saw this in you in about my first month of posting here on C-D. Great mind, & excellent communicator, IMHO.).
Awww shucks, Rifleman... I can always count on you to provide such ego-inflating feedback. I'm about 8-10 years from a PhD unless, of course, I just go the Creationist route and order my PhD from some trailer park in Colorado for a cool $25,000.

Don't you worry... One of these years I will get off my lazy butt and start my freshman year of college.
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Old 09-27-2011, 01:35 AM
 
Location: Ohio
3,441 posts, read 4,992,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post


Yes, in fact, they are. You'll have to define what you mean by "Creationism" though, but if it means some "insta-poofy" 6-day event, all mediated by a sole entity, then sorry. Didn't happen that way. Evolution requires a slow, step-wise process that of needs billions of years, as it actually had, for the necessary mutation events and other means of genetic drift and change, plus a chance for those to be fully tested in the environment.
Again, Creationism as I see it works just fine with evolution.

Everything was NOT created in what we understand to be 6 "days".

The Universe is about 15 billion(as we understand it to be now), the Earth about 5 Billion, "humans" (Homo sapiens) about 100,000.
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Old 09-27-2011, 02:17 AM
 
34,697 posts, read 8,945,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackwatch View Post
Again, Creationism as I see it works just fine with evolution.

Everything was NOT created in what we understand to be 6 "days".

The Universe is about 15 billion(as we understand it to be now), the Earth about 5 Billion, "humans" (Homo sapiens) about 100,000.
If you mean that Evolution 'works just fine' with a creating deity, then you have a point in that one can postulate a creating deity behind all that, though there are few good reasons to suggest any such thing (let alone insist that it is fact) and quite a few good reasons to doubt it.

But Creationism is a different matter since ID tries to fiddle science to make it necessary that some planning mind was involved or it tries to fiddle geological and palaeontological evidence to try to make it fit the Bible.

That is why Creationism and evolution theory do not work together.
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:50 AM
 
5,463 posts, read 5,788,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
Are physical changes that have occurred because of the surrounding environment could intervene in the genetic structure of the cell ?
I answered this in http://www.city-data.com/forum/20983591-post19.html. Go back and reread it if you don't understand. Then we can move on and see if this mechanism is a common mechanism for evolution to work with.

Quote:
scientists answer this question by saying "we do not know ... but .. we can give a scientific explanation based on speculation !!!
Considering you don't even know how evolution works you'll understand if I'm a bit skeptical of this claim. But go ahead, let's see some scientific proof that you know how the first cell came about.
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,076,781 times
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Default Dah Trutt As I See It!

As well, it's the height of desperate Creativism to casually alter the timeline; that otherwise humorous argument that, for this event alone, God adjusted the chronometer, speeding it up hugely, just so He could allow the necessary billions of years that effective abiogenesis and Evolution could occur as we now observe them to have.

But then, just so as to confuse us, He later arbitrarily slowed it all down, since He wanted to see it fit in with our inarguable Seiko wrist-watches!? You know; so that we would see time exactly as we do know, but still, we have to rely on humorous revisionism to explain how it happened if God did it.

Of course, there's the alternative: and well-supported by the evidence we now find, but most Christians categorically refuse to read about: that it worked exactly as we've stressed it did. Why believe that version?

Because the growing mass of well-documented evidence exactly fits that version, without restrictions & revisions. And to top it off, that version also Predicts what else we should find. Which, when we go look at life does....voila!!!! do exactly that!

WhaddahYahKnow, huh?
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
If you mean that Evolution 'works just fine' with a creating deity, then you have a point in that one can postulate a creating deity behind all that, though there are few good reasons to suggest any such thing (let alone insist that it is fact) and quite a few good reasons to doubt it.

But Creationism is a different matter since ID tries to fiddle science to make it necessary that some planning mind was involved or it tries to fiddle geological and palaeontological evidence to try to make it fit the Bible.

That is why Creationism and evolution theory do not work together.
You are stuck on the idea that all Creationists think the same.

What are the reasons to doubt it?
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Old 09-27-2011, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,076,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackwatch View Post
You are stuck on the idea that all Creationists think the same.

What are the reasons to doubt it?
Well, if you mean Creationism, we doubt it because.... it doesn't work! Too many holes in the idea, nothing in evidence to support it, and a whole pile of alternative ways that DO work, as per all that we've tested and observed. And continue to find evidence for. (Actually, we're onl filling in the holes now; it's an established Theory [and not in that "It's a guess" version of the word "theory"]

Creation says God dunnit all at once, all at the same time (give or take a"day" or 6), the Earth, the firmament, the universe, the light & dark, the oceans and the dry land. Nope. What about the inarguable fossil [and more recently,. DNA lineage tracking...] record that shows a hugely lengthy time progression from simpler beginnings through the various epochs and era and ages, up through today?

What about the now-irrefutable DNA lineage of hominids across the east and the bering Sea, into N. america? Not to mention the contemporaneous migration of upright hominids through southern, and then into northern, Europe, and the subsequent replacement (via out-competition) of the Neanderthals by more modern "Versions" from our more recent ancestry?

And so on.

Any sort of un-natural, supernatural or insta-poofy version of how this all got here simply doesn't jive with the observable reality all around ius. Sorry.

Creationism does not work. It's only a ploy to try to make that very poorly written (in the scientific sense I mean..) bible fit the reality, but that simply won't work since it's authors had literally no technical knowledge of the world around them, nor of it's rather complex and lengthy past. They didn't know about dinosaurs or Neanderthals or early hominid-like ape-men, and so they left all that out for later apologists to frantically make up a totally implausible story, where God adjusts time to fit!

Funny!
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Old 09-27-2011, 01:17 PM
 
34,697 posts, read 8,945,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackwatch View Post
You are stuck on the idea that all Creationists think the same.

What are the reasons to doubt it?
I am admittedly using a generally accepted definition of creationism. Hang on...
Definition of CREATIONISM

: a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis — compare evolution 4b
Merriam and Co.

If you are an Evolutionary Theist, then Creationism is not the applicable term.

While we're at it, let's consider ID "the theory that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by a designing intelligence" (ibid)

If you'd like to say what you mean by 'creationism' I'll consider whether to list any reasons to doubt it, but frankly, I'm tired of explaining evolution to people with their fingers stuffed in their ears.
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Old 09-27-2011, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,049,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackwatch View Post
Again, Creationism as I see it works just fine with evolution.
Alright, fine. Now is the time where I ask for evidence supporting the Creationist stance so that it could be satisfactorily taught in school as a scientific hypothesis. Any empirical or peer-reviewed paper that satisfactorily includes the basis for conjecture of a Creator doing something, i.e., a paper perhaps entitled: The Novel Introduction Of Creation In A Non-Existent Plane of Empty Space Based on Spontaneous Complexities Arising Instantaneously From A Source Being.

I'll patiently wait while you provide the necessary scientific research which explains why Creation can come even remotely close to being compared or taught alongside Evolution.
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:47 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,093,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
If you mean that Evolution 'works just fine' with a creating deity, then you have a point in that one can postulate a creating deity behind all that, though there are few good reasons to suggest any such thing (let alone insist that it is fact) and quite a few good reasons to doubt it.
I think that neatly summarizes the entire issue.

Even as a Agnostic Atheist, I cannot dismiss out of hand that the universe is the creation of some omnipotent force/being because of the lack of conclusive evidence one way or another for the cause of its creation.

However, I can and do absolutely reject the biblical, and other creationist narratives that have been presented during the human epoch. As a result, I find no alternative but to dismiss the existence of any causative force/god which form the basis for these mythologies. If the narratives cannot stand up to even casual scrutiny then there is no possible credence for believing in any deity that they would describe. This makes me an atheist given the theist positions that exist.

Addendum: A somewhat related point.

The supposition that the universe in general and life in particular are far too complex to occur naturally thus some intelligent omnipotent power/being/ entity must be responsible to me is an argument lacking in imagination. The very complexity that underlies intelligent design is to me the argument against its validity. When I think of a god capable of creating life, and the cosmos and I compare that to the picayune concerns of the god of the bible there becomes an instant disconnect in the logic of the ID argument.

If as ID proponents argue, that ID is both logical and intuitive, then it is also intuitive and logical to argue that a god that can create the intricacies of DNA, to say nothing of astrophysics, would be as concerned with the intricacies of what to do when a women is menstruating! To me the god of Abraham as told by Jews, Christians and Muslims is far too inadequate for the task of creating life much less the cosmos.
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