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Old 09-30-2011, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Vermont
10,099 posts, read 10,672,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
I am just curious how so many of you believe in the bill of rights and will fight for those rights, yet at the same time, bash people for their religious beliefs?

I know quite a few atheists who think it is everyone's right to be free of religious persecution. Yet at the same time, they attempt to force their views that all religions are wrong and that they shouldn't believe what they do. This makes no sense. You are either open to people believing what they want to and believe they have the right to do so, or you are against their beliefs and don't think they have the right to believe them.

Maybe I am missing something. If I am fill me in. This is not an attempt to bash atheists, I am just curious to know why many atheists are like this?
You absolutely are missing something.

I know of no atheists in this country (this isn't exactly Albania, and Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens are no Enver Hoxha) who think we should use the power of government to stamp out, or even disadvantage, religious belief.

There are plenty of atheists who are vocal in our disagreement with religious beliefs and principles and who don't hesitate to assert that we think we are correct and that people who believe in god are wrong. For that reason, we very strongly believe that religious people "shouldn't believe what they do". We do not, however, think that "they don't have the right to believe them".

There are plenty of theists in this country who do believe that it is the proper role of government to advance religious belief in general or their particular religion, especially if they are Christians. Because these people have had the political advantage for a long time, and dominate one of our two major parties, it isn't surprising that they will complain when we push back.
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Old 09-30-2011, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Vermont
10,099 posts, read 10,672,028 times
Reputation: 13467
Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
I agree, the government should be like a utility company, minus the call center in India and the outrageous charges that make no sense.

So is sharing your religious beliefs ok as long as you aren't trying to force anyone? Im not talking about going door to door, just if it comes up in a conversation, then is it ok to talk about it and possibly make suggestions?
Of course. For that matter, going door to door is okay, and entirely within the constitutional rights of anyone who wants to convince anyone in the country that their religion is right, or, for that matter, of any atheist who wants to convince people they should not believe in any god. That said, I'm not sure I'd be any more successful as an atheist going door to door than the Mormons who show up at my house are.
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Old 09-30-2011, 10:36 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,237,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
You absolutely are missing something.

I know of no atheists in this country (this isn't exactly Albania, and Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens are no Enver Hoxha) who think we should use the power of government to stamp out, or even disadvantage, religious belief.

There are plenty of atheists who are vocal in our disagreement with religious beliefs and principles and who don't hesitate to assert that we think we are correct and that people who believe in god are wrong. For that reason, we very strongly believe that religious people "shouldn't believe what they do". We do not, however, think that "they don't have the right to believe them".

There are plenty of theists in this country who do believe that it is the proper role of government to advance religious belief in general or their particular religion, especially if they are Christians. Because these people have had the political advantage for a long time, and dominate one of our two major parties, it isn't surprising that they will complain when we push back.
Exactly this.
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Old 09-30-2011, 10:38 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,237,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
Of course. For that matter, going door to door is okay, and entirely within the constitutional rights of anyone who wants to convince anyone in the country that their religion is right, or, for that matter, of any atheist who wants to convince people they should not believe in any god. That said, I'm not sure I'd be any more successful as an atheist going door to door than the Mormons who show up at my house are.
They may be within their rights to knock on my door, but only if the property isn't posted to prevent such access. Also, they may be within their rights to knock on my door, but I'm within my rights to answer the door stark naked and with a very large snarling dog at my side.
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Old 09-30-2011, 10:47 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
10,384 posts, read 10,439,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
You see, you made a general statement to support your claim without any supporting evidence, now I make the same type of claim and you right away dismiss them as false. I tell these stories I have personnaly read about them in the news not by the the assumptions you claimed. Sure, you ask for proof but with the preconception that they are false. If you are really open minded, YOU need to go and look it up. I never questioned your point because it is true and I have seen and not allow biases to blind the other side of an issue.

Also, how about the VA cemetery supervisor in I believe San Antonion that wrote a letter that I believe the words Jesus and God cannot be said in prayers at military funerals. Also, as I was driving I heard in the news where a teacher in some school was prohibiting children to say God Bless you when someone sneezed because it was offensive. With your attitude you will also dismiss as hearsay? Probably based on how you wrote your reply. Your mind is made up, take care.
You really should get your facts straight before you post things. First of all, it took place in Houston. Second, you only told part of the story. When this article VA: 'God' Allowed at Cemetery (http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/110630-va-god-allowed-at-cemetary - broken link) was published on July 1, it included the VA Press Secretary's statement: "Invoking the name of God or Jesus is not only allowed, it is common at VA National Cemeteries across the country. However, VA's policy is that VA-sponsored honor guards should not make recitations at commital services unless requested to do so by the deceased's survivor(s.)'

(I want to apologize before anyone asks for posting a link to a Fox-related news source.)
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Old 09-30-2011, 10:50 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,237,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
You really should get your facts straight before you post things. First of all, it took place in Houston. Second, you only told part of the story. When this article VA: 'God' Allowed at Cemetery (http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/110630-va-god-allowed-at-cemetary - broken link) was published on July 1, it included the VA Press Secretary's statement: "Invoking the name of God or Jesus is not only allowed, it is common at VA National Cemeteries across the country. However, VA's policy is that VA-sponsored honor guards should not make recitations at commital services unless requested to do so by the deceased's survivor(s.)'

(I want to apologize before anyone asks for posting a link to a Fox-related news source.)
Ah, so exactly as I suspected. Thank you for verifying that.
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,769,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
You really should get your facts straight before you post things. First of all, it took place in Houston. Second, you only told part of the story. When this article VA: 'God' Allowed at Cemetery (http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/110630-va-god-allowed-at-cemetary - broken link) was published on July 1, it included the VA Press Secretary's statement: "Invoking the name of God or Jesus is not only allowed, it is common at VA National Cemeteries across the country. However, VA's policy is that VA-sponsored honor guards should not make recitations at commital services unless requested to do so by the deceased's survivor(s.)'

(I want to apologize before anyone asks for posting a link to a Fox-related news source.)
The rest of the story? Read more on the issue then. Do you think Veterans Organizations are raising and fighting what the Cemetery Director is doing Houston if they are following the same old practices?
Look what is the issue with those Veteran Organizations, in other words the rest of the story.

Also, I wrote "I believe" in San Antonio because I could not remember the exact Texas city. I know someone would be prompt to cite the right city, thanks.
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:36 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,769,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyegirl View Post
Listen, I agree the PC thing can be a bit over the top at times. If a woman is in a class and the entire class is discussing both sides of the abortion topic, she could state that, absolutely. I believe in freedom of speech 100%, even if I don't agree with what some people say. If a child took her bible to school to read quietly, not trying to "save" people, sure, absolutely. These are basic rights, and these examples don't infringe on my rights at all.
Glad to hear that. However, in those example the IF does not apply. The college girl when I read the article simply stated her opinion on the issue.
On the school girl she was reading her Bible on her own.

However, for the sake of argument. What is wrong if for example she is discussing the Bible with a classmate sharing with her her beliefs? The classmate does not seem to have a problem hearing her friend. Do you have a problem with it? I do not if the discussion is mutual even if it is in school grounds.

Now, let us say the classmate says she is not interested in hearing any Bible thing. Do you have a problem with it? I do because the Bible girl is not respecting her classmate wishes.

I other words it is not different that if I am having a conversation with you and somehow tell you about some political point. If you say "I do not like to talk about politics". I should respect that and the political discussion is over.

When I was young and liked a girl I asked her out. She said no. OK, I should respect that point and go on with the next subject. Most of the time we simply may have kept the conversation on other topics. Had I kept insisting that I could get into the harassment area.

Now, when it comes to politics many theists do not want to follow this simple principles when it comes to religion. Boy oh boy! Many go into emotional gyrations. Simply say NO and that is it. The Bible nut that does not want to hear it then deserves to get what comes to him for being a pest. The Bible believer that respects other right will simply stop and may keep having a good conversation with the theist that is also sensible and level headed, take care.
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Old 09-30-2011, 01:45 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
10,384 posts, read 10,439,403 times
Reputation: 7000
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
The rest of the story? Read more on the issue then. Do you think Veterans Organizations are raising and fighting what the Cemetery Director is doing Houston if they are following the same old practices?
Look what is the issue with those Veteran Organizations, in other words the rest of the story.

Also, I wrote "I believe" in San Antonio because I could not remember the exact Texas city. I know someone would be prompt to cite the right city, thanks.
You only had part of the story. The Cemetery Director said something. You neglected to add that it was against the VA policy. Now Veterans organizations won't be satisfied until that Cemetery Director is removed, but this is really a separate story from the fact that the director was violating VA policy all along, and you failed to mention that salient point.
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Old 09-30-2011, 03:05 PM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,237,408 times
Reputation: 3933
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Glad to hear that. However, in those example the IF does not apply. The college girl when I read the article simply stated her opinion on the issue.
On the school girl she was reading her Bible on her own.
Again you fail to provide substance to your claims. Link us the news stories you're getting these from so that we can read them for ourselves. Or are you afraid we'll find that you've twisted the stories to your own ends...again?
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