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Old 09-23-2011, 07:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinylly View Post
Sorry, sir, I intentionally did not express my opinion nor anybody elses. So how can you accuse me of bigotry, intolerance and hatred? (Vinylly)
Is not the Bible itself the opinions of the men who wrote the texts? And the men who decided what to include and exclude? And the men who translated, interpreted, added to or deleted from the original texts?

You also claimed that some protestant churches have made compromises with the Bible for the sake of political correctness. That's an opinion. And quite a prejudiced one.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinylly View Post
Unfortunately I have never considered myself God. Therefore I have to follow what God teaches in the Holy Bible.
Everything in the Bible? Or just the bits you (or someone else) decides apply to you?

How do you decide what doesn't apply to you?
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinylly View Post
Although I am not Muslim, I would like to know what Muslim's believe about homosexuality.
This is what the Bible says about this subject:
Read:
I Carinthians 6:9-10
Genesis 19
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:26-27

Then the Bible talks about making compromising to the Gospel:
Read:
Galatiians 1:6-10
John 14:15
Revelations 14:12
Many protestant churches have made compromises to the Bible, specially when it comes to homosexuality, for the sake of political correctness.

What does the Koran have to say about compromises to the Koran and homosexuality?
I would like to hear from you muslims on this subject.
The Qur'an the simplest explanation states that Sexual relationships are to take place only among people who are married to each other.

For how this is treated will vary by what Madhab of Sharia a nation follows. The sunni nations will follow one of Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki or Hanabli. The nation using sharian has to pattern their laws based upon ome and only one of the Madhabs. Under the sunni madhabs homosexuality is not illegal. The act of committing Zina, illegal sexual activities is what is illegal. the requirement for conviction under the 4 Sunni madhabs is 4 eye witnesses, each see every aspect of the same sexual act at the same times and the 4 testimonies to be in agreement. The maximum penalty is death. but in most hanafi countries the death penalty is forbidden and the court is to look for reasons to be lenient. In the Hanabli countries, the death penalty may be used, but the court has the final otion as to what if any punishment is to be given. the other 2 madhabs are some where in-between with the shafi'i being very similar to the Hanafi. The Sufi do not follow any madhab and set no laws, they simply accept the laws of the nation they live in. The Shi'i follow the Jafa'ari madhab which is the strictest and does not allow for leniency all crimes receive the maximum punishment.

So where you live will determine the view of homosexuality. The act will be a crime in all of them but the tolerance of the person will depend on the country. In most Muslim countries it is one of tolerance as long as the person with same-sex tendencies does not force them upon other, while in a nations that follows the Jafa'ari madhab, there is no tolerance and all homosexuals are at risk of hanging.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 09-23-2011 at 08:42 PM..
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Based on that, using your own choice of passages, you must be in favor of girls having babies with their father.
Or think it's okay for a father to offer up his virgin daughters to a gang of men intent on rape?

YHWH supposedly thought Lot was a "righteous" man and saved him, so I guess that was okay with his god?

Seriously, does anyone who uses this story against modern-day gay people ever think it through first?

I have yet to see any person who uses that story who is even aware of the similar story in Judges 19 where it clearly shows that a gang of men who threatened to rape a male stranger (the Levite) ended up gang-raping his female concubine all night.

I have also yet to see any person who uses that story against gay people pay any attention at all to the fact that in all the mentions of Sodom and Gomorrah throughout the rest of the Bible, there is nothing that has anything even remotely to do with homosexuality. It's about the treatment of strangers and the poor, pride and excess, and the Abrahamic code of hospitality. Ask a Jew. It's their story.

Male rape of strangers and enemies was common. And guess what? We know from modern sex-offender profiling that most men who rape other men are usually heterosexual.
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
I think what he is saying is that he will totally do what God wants, so long as it happens to also be what he wants.
Interesting how that always works isn't it? And now science backs it up:

Creating God in one's own image : Not Exactly Rocket Science

"Their opinions on God's attitudes on important social issues closely mirror their own beliefs. If their own attitudes change, so do their perceptions of what God thinks. They even use the same parts of their brain when considering God's will and their own opinions."

"The results suggest that similar parts of the brain are involved when we consider our own beliefs and those of God - Epley thinks this is why we end up inferring a deity's attitudes based on those we hold ourselves."




I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Susan B. Anthony
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Astron1000 View Post
Or do you actually mean, for the sake of humanitarianism?
Or for the sake of accuracy?
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Old 09-23-2011, 08:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a slave of Allah View Post
Dear Vinylly,

There is no commandment in the Quran to kill gays, but their story is obvious that they are to be destroyed as they destroy the nature that God has made. Yet, the prophet, peace be upon him, explained that they are to be killed.

I believe it is Not the feeling that God will punish them for, but it is the practice of sex with the same gender. As long as they don't practice sex, they are not to be punished by death.

If you ask any sinner muslim, you will find him accepting the punishment he is to get. This is why he is a muslim. But those who refuse (to refuse is different than to escape from the punishment. You can escape, but not refuse) or try to change the rules of God, they are sinner disbelievers.

The difference is that the muslims (those who submit to the Will of God) will get out of Hell, but the disbelievers will not.

Prophet Mohammad, peace be upon him, suggested that muslims should hide their sinful brothers, but if they show off, the punishment will be due.

Actually, destruction is natural when Peace rules are rejected. But the strainge thing is when I stay under Peace Light, while I have stransgressed His limits. That is an evidence for me that the Peace is Merciful.

Let us seek God's forgiveness and repent to Him and help others to repent.

Also, just a hint due to experience: Isolate yourself from people (at least for hours) to purify yourself for God, you will know in reality what the Peace is (You will not comprehend the Peace as the Peace is Infinit, but you will know about Him what you didn't know before that).

Leave all those who cut off your way to God, and enjoy real life brother.

May Allah doesn't block us from Himself, eventhough we deserve such ever lasting Hell.

Peace.
So what's your opinion on the long standing practice of pederasty in islamic countries like Iran (Persia). Or of the promise in the Quran of "beautiful boys" errr...attending men in Paradise?

As I understand it, as women were not easily available for sex, it was culturally okay to have sex with "beautiful young downy cheeked boys" as a substitute. Like the "dancing boys" in modern day Afghanistan?

So is it just 2 adult males that Islam takes issue with? Not an old man and a young boy?

LiveLeak.com - Pederasty in the Islamic World
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Old 09-23-2011, 09:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
On Iran they actually give some gays the the "out" of gender reassignment surgery. Some sort-of Shiite thing of homosexuality means the mind and body are not aligned, or something, so switching the body "fixes" it. Apparently this is religious as they didn't do it before the Islamic Revolution.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran's 'diagnosed transsexuals'
Interesting that it's easier for transgenders than for homosexual men in Iran. As far as I know, gay men don't actually want to change their gender or gender identity.
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Old 09-23-2011, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
Interesting that it's easier for transgenders than for homosexual men in Iran. As far as I know, gay men don't actually want to change their gender or gender identity.
Iran is more than just a little bit of a paradox. It is a major paradox. Just my opinion, but I suspect the government has and still does fear of a revolution by the populace and uses extreme tactics to keep the people in line.

You will find different views in almost every City.
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Hmm the Douay-Rheims of the eighteenth century seems to say

"Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God."

At least I assume it's eighteenth century as they still have the footnotes from Challoner and he died in 1781. It may not use the word "homosexual" but it's kind of clear.
Not really. Liars of mankind does not mean a whole lot. Mankind can refer to many things, not just a singular male. Women lie with mankind too. And women and men constitute "mankind", so that really doesn't make a lot of sense. Effeminate is wrong too, and was changed with the KJV. Other versions copied the KJV, but there is absolutely no historical or linguistic basis for translating it that way. Liars with mankind during the time period you are quoting, actually universally referred to masturbators. It was translated that way in Martin Luther's German Bible, and some Greek dictionaries still list it that way.

However, the most common view throughout history was that of male prostitutes or boy sex slaves being used by married, wealthy men. Pagan prostitution was the view in the 1st Century when Paul wrote that according to Philo.

Quote:
I do understand how Gay-Christians understands these verses, and that this understanding can be justifiable, but I think you tend to believe that "justifiable" is the same as correct or inarguable. And I find that questionable. If it were so clear we would see early Christianity having a much different attitude to homosexuality than it did. When Christianity became official it wasn't simply negative to male-on-male prostitution or pederasty, all homosexuality was verboten. And I don't know of any widely accepted evidence of it being different before then.
Where is your evidence it was all homosexuality? Consensual, monogamous, non-abusive same-sex relationships essentially did not exist. Paganism was the norm. The head of the Conservative Rabbinical School (I think in Los Angeles) said that after studying every historical source he could get his hands on, he has never seen evidence of a same-sex relationship that did not involve some type of prostitution or pederasty in Greco-Roman culture and early Christianity.

Also keep in mind that early Christianity and the church believed the Sun revolved around the Earth for hundreds of years, and excommunicated people who challenged that view. Just because Christianity viewed homosexuality in a negative light for so long, doesn't mean its views were based on sound evidence or accurate.

And it is my view of the Bible based on years of researching the issue. I see no solid evidence that God condemns modern day gays. I also see some glaring contradictions from a Biblical viewpoint if He did, such as the fact that God has offered no remedy for gays according to the Bible. And fundamentalists make no effort to actually understand the Bible. They just like to assume modern day English verses taken out of context are the 100% literal word of God. That is, until they come across a contradiction like the Sun orbiting the earth, and then they cherry pick the Bible and say, "Oh, well that's a figure of speech obviously!"
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