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Old 10-19-2011, 04:52 PM
7,811 posts, read 5,058,518 times
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Not only can you say you are glad he is consistent, but we can say we are glad he is not in power. Marriage is not just about reproduction, it is about people finding their way in this world together and dedicating their life to another while making that journey..... if having children is part of that journey then that is great...... but to dictate that having children needs to be part of that journey says more about the speaker than anything else.

Old 10-19-2011, 05:21 PM
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,038 posts, read 30,666,192 times
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"Research has consistently shown little difference in children's social competence, parental socialization, and family functioning between families of heterosexual parents and families of gay or lesbian parents. The few differences that do emerge consistently suggest that:
  1. Gay and lesbian couples tend to have a more egalitarian and satisfying balance of child-care tasks than heterosexual couples.
  2. Gay and lesbian parents may be marginally more effective socialization agents than heterosexual parents, and
  3. Children with gay or lesbian parents may be more concerned with or even experience more discrimination due to their parents' sexual orientation, although this does not appear to interfere with their social competence. Summary of the suppressed Canadian government meta-study about same-sex parenting
Although some states and jurisdictions have recognized civil unions and domestic partnership arrangements, these legal constructs do not carry the same rights, benefits, and protections that are conferred by civil marriage.

Recent publications from 2 population-based samples lend additional strength to earlier evidence demonstrating that children's well-being is not threatened as a result of growing up with lesbian parents. The Effects of Marriage, Civil Union, and Domestic Partnership Laws on the Health and Well-being of Children

Same-sex marriage around the world - World - CBC News
Old 10-19-2011, 05:27 PM
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,038 posts, read 30,666,192 times
Reputation: 12213
Here is a bit of trivia on this topic...

Did you know.... that the states with the highest percentages of lesbian couples raising children are Mississippi (43.8%), South Dakota and Utah (42.3% each), and Texas (40.9%).

Regionally, the South has the highest percentage of same-gender couples who are parents; 36.1% of lesbian couples and 23.9% of gay couples in the South are raising children.

Same-gender couples are raising children in at least 96% of all US counties.

Nearly one quarter of all same-gender couples are raising children.
The Effects of Marriage, Civil Union, and Domestic Partnership Laws on the Health and Well-being of Children
Old 10-19-2011, 05:28 PM
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,568,370 times
Reputation: 1760
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Not only can you say you are glad he is consistent, but we can say we are glad he is not in power. Marriage is not just about reproduction, it is about people finding their way in this world together and dedicating their life to another while making that journey..... if having children is part of that journey then that is great...... but to dictate that having children needs to be part of that journey says more about the speaker than anything else.
I'm betting she mis-read my question, and we'll find she's not consistent after all.

Stating "at least you are consistent" was a subtle way of calling my shot.
Old 10-19-2011, 08:28 PM
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,932,442 times
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Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Homosexual couples ALREADY have rights under both Common Law Marriage...
Common-law marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
if they already have the rights, what's wrong with giving them the title as well?

...and they have rights under Cohabitation Agreements.
Cohabitation agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These rights may include, but are not limited to...
- Eligibility for health insurance benefits,
- Life insurance benefits,
- Child visitation rights,
- Hospital visitation rights,
- Inheritance when named in the deceased will &...
- For those under common law marriage - inheritance even without a will - called interstate succession,
- With common law marraige, courts may be ased to settle post-relationships property disputes,
- With common law marriage, alimony awards
- Domestic partners may also if entered a formal agreement for palimony prior to cohabitation
Marvin v Marvin, 18 Cal. 3d 660, 557 P.2d 106, 134 Cal. Rptr. 815 (Cal. 1976)
sorry, this is not the same as getting married.

It's concerning how homosexuality is pushing it's way into the legal system & into others' lives, sometimes imposing "gay rights" over the rights of others.
This especially applies to legally redefining marriage & legalizing gay marriage, which can & has had significantly negative influences, especially on children...
How is this any different than Christians pushing their ways into the legal system and the lives of others? Teaching inaccurate history, science, and literature is school?

It has been proven over & over that children do best being raised with a mother AND father.
Actually, they do better with two parents, gender isn't a prerequisite

Supporting gay marriage is devaluing mothers & fathers, claiming one or the other is not necessary, when BOTH are.
Children have the RIGHT to be raised by the 2 different, complimentary sexes that created & conceived them.
To be honest, sometimes both are not needed. And who is to say that homosexuals can't teach thing to their kids that a mother and father would teach? Does each gender have a certain curriculum they must teach? I know of many men who teach their kids to cook, clean, do laundry, and other "feminine" tasks. I know many women who teach their kids "masculine" tasks as well. Life lessons are not gender specific. What about all those children abandoned by their biological parents?

Children have the right to not be taught homosexuality in school. Yet, in places where gay marriage has been enacted, these rights have been infringed upon.
I see it more as teaching love, not homosexuality

Freshmen were told not to tell their parents about a pro-gay seminar & were required to sign a confidentiality agreement (Derrfield, Illinois Mar. 2007).
I am going to need an actual documentation of proof of this.

In March, 2007, a Massachusetts high school banned parents from attending a seminar for students on how they can know they are homosexual.
Are you sure it wasn't more of a seminar on how to be yourself and not be afraid of what people think?
In October, 2008, First graders (6 year-old students) were taken on a field trip to watch their lesbian teacher's wedding.
No field trip is allowed without parental permission and often parental chaperons.
In Oct 2008, a Hayward CA public elementary school celebrated "Coming Out Day."
Would you rather they celebrate hate day?

Normalizing & even encouraging children to explore homosexuality obviously causes more to experiment with homosexuality.
Psychotherapy for the Sexually Confused Teenager - Joseph Nicolosi
Making people aware of what they might be feeling is not a bad thing. Making someone especially youth feel normal is a good thing too.

Also, others' rights have been infringed upon in favor of supporting gay rights.
In April 2008, an Albuquerque photographer was fined over $6,000 for refusing to be hired to photograph a lesbian couple's commitment ceremony.
Discrimination is against the law.

In May, 2008, a black administrator was fired from the U of Toledo, Ohio, for writing an editorial objecting to the comparison of black discrimination to same-sex marriage.
How is it different? Same people are against it.

An intolerant opponent of Proposition 8 even violently attacked & injured a Proposition supporter in Oct. 2008.
The actions of one do not speak for the group.

On November 19, 2008, eHarmony, a Christian-based matching service was forced by New Jersey's Division on Civil Rights to provide website matching services for homosexuals.
Love is for all.
Redefining marriage is trying to impose a minority's belief on a majority, forcing social acceptance through the legal system & is causing harm to others in the process.
This is different from Christians forcing people to believe what they do how?

Just one question: How is recognizing homosexuals and legalizing marriage hurting you? leave the bible out of the answer. I want to know how it physically effects you?
It doesn't. Making it legal has no effect on you. It doesn't mean that you have to become homosexual.

It isn't an illness or mental disorder. Love isn't bound by Christian standards or anyone else's. Love is free for all to enjoy with whom they want.
Old 10-19-2011, 08:51 PM
3,488 posts, read 3,147,309 times
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Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
Thanks for your post Whopper. Ancient Greece was a culture which celebrated all things male.

However, from what I understand, not many Greek men had adult male lovers as it wasn't as acceptable as the adult/youth dynamic of pederasty which was practiced by men who were probably heterosexual or bisexual. Alexander did have an adult male lover - for a long time. To me that shows he was predominantly homosexual.
Yes, you seem to be well familiar with the situation back then. You're exactly right about the dynamics involved. The book I mentioned has an excellent summation of the situation which I feel compelled to quote at length, because it's so helpful. Not much of this may be news to you, but it may be to others, and I have this problem with looooong posts:

"The above outline of the homosexual ethos in Athens shows that it underwent a fundamental change between the Archaic and the Classical ages. The archetypal homosexual relationship was that between a childlike or pubescent boy and a mature man. The contact had strong paternal overtones, and it involved affectionate response from the child partner and mild sexual response from the pubescent partner. The original image of the ideal "beloved" did not include any feminine traits. In general, the sexual approach was frontal and the copulation intracrural.

The period when this pattern took shape was the Archaic age of Athens, before the greatest flowering of Attic culture. During the fifth and fourth centuries this pattern became compromised and led to male prostitution by citizens and to adult male love affairs, both of these practices were consistently stigmatized as socially unacceptable. Anal sex, generally associated with obscenity and coarse behavior, was the common form of these discredited types of homosexual contact.

Plato's speculations on the ideal homosexual relationship in his Symposium are far too involved to be discussed here in detail. Plato stresses throughout the pedagogic aspects of homosexual bonds. The philosopher never married, and he is not known to have had any children; he may well have played Zeus to a number of Ganymedes in his life. Yet he does express misgivings about the sexual side of such relationships. In his last dialogue, Laws, he goes so far as to imply that homosexual activity is contrary to nature (S41d) and, surprisingly, he extolls the virtues of monogamous, affectionate marriage (839b).

Summing up this examination of homosexual practices, one must conclude that the striking feature of Athenian mores is not the glorification of pederasty but the extraordinary propensity for prostitution, both heterosexual and homosexual." (Keuls, The Reign of the Phallus, 1985, pp. 298-299)

Alexander's relationship with his lover is still debated, open to question and will probably never be settled. Alexander was an avid reader of Homer, especially the Illiad, and embraced the ideals of glory and honor most memorably put forth in that work, but seems to have rejected many of the more modern Greek customs - such as the games. This makes sense - he seems to have been a fan of the more ancient Greek ideals, not necesarrily the more modern ideals discussed above pertaining to Athens. A writer, telling the story of Alexander, related how he viewed his relationship with Hephaestion as closer to the relationship of Homer's Achilles and Patroclus, rather than as an outright homosexual relationship - for which there are no concrete, detailed accounts. I find this lack of evidence surprising, given the importance of Alexander for his time.

We only have the outcome of Hephaestion's death to help with the picture, and the theory that this began to cause the debilitating mental problems and drinking bouts that ended Alexander's life so prematurely. As I said in a previous post - it's so difficult to make a judgement on their relationship, especially given the ambiguity that attached itself to Achilles and Patroclus' relationship in the Illiad, and Alexander's seeming rejection of Athenian culture (which might as well equate to universal greek culture for a long period of time, if one can even speak of the various city-states in such a manner) - it might have remained platonic (though this too is an ambiguous term, given the above quote from Keuls) and, Homer-inspired, stuck in an older age of Greek ideals - one free from sexual stigmatization, or even the idea of the cause of such stigmatization.

In the end - he was a product of his age, and another's - and this makes it so hard to assess his character, especially given that he stood apart from his contemporaries in so many other obvious ways.

Thanks for your post - it actually addressed some of my issues and helped me better wrap my head around a subject that still fascinates me from time to time. I won't even begin to start writing about the role such relationships played in the Hebrew Bible (or I'll be here all night, when I should be asleep), and how I feel it's impossible to apply modern ideas of sexual orientation to a people who might not have understood what that meant - only how roles changed over time and circumstance, and the various ways in which such relationships were both a source of humor to the earliest writers, and a source of frustration for the Yahweh-alone Cult later.
Old 10-20-2011, 03:48 AM
17,853 posts, read 11,749,501 times
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Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Prior to Dec. 1974, the American Psychological Association defined homosexuality as a disorder.
After being harrased by a gay activist group, the APA changed the definition of homosexuality, not out of scientific evidence, but out of political pressure.

The Born "Gay" Hoax |

Nobody is "born" gay any more than they are born anorexic. They may have tendencies, but environmental signals must be present for those tendencies to be expressed.
Archives of Sexual Behavior (JournalSeek)

If it is accepted that one can't help how they act, they were just "born" that way... what does that imply for those with other sexual deviations?
The APA's and the Pedophilia Controversy
On the Pedophilia Issue: What the APA Should Have Known
Statistics on homosexuals - 1978 to 1994

Yes we know there are a lot of ignorant bigoted hate-based websites on the internet. The sites you link are like going to the KKK for information on blacks.

Do you think you would get any 'facts' about black people from the KKK?

Or maybe you have a problem with blacks as well? How about Jews or Asians? Or anyone else different to you? Or is it only gay people you hate?
Old 10-20-2011, 04:35 AM
17,853 posts, read 11,749,501 times
Reputation: 4113
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Both homosexual men & homosexual women are statistically more likely than their heterosexual counterparts, to obtain STDs because both have more partners...
Health Risks of the Homosexual Lifestyle

Marriage is not a guarantee for monogamy, especially when it comes to homosexuals, statistically.
One study showed 66% of gay couples had sex outside their relationship the first year...
Aprox 90% had sex outside their relationship if it lasted 5 years.
http://www.corporateresourcecouncil.org/white_papers/Health_Risks.pdf (broken link)

The above link also explains, "In addition to diseases that may be transmitted during lesbian sex, a study at an Australian STD clinic found that lebians were three to four times more likely than heterosexual women to have sex with men who were high-risk for HIV."
Now you link to the fake so-called "American College of Pedatrics".
It's only purpose is their anti-gay crusade and it only has about 60 members who are all religious and extremely anti-gay. The real American Academy of Pediatrics has about 60,000 clinically qualified pediatricians.

George 'rentboy' Rekers is the person who wrote that so-called 'facts about youth' thing you linked to. You know? The anti-gay crusader who got caught taking a 19 year old rentboy on a european holiday last year?

Sadly for old George, this year was a bad year for him as well. His original PhD thesis from the 1970's on using theapy to 'cure' effeminate boys was found to be based on fraudulent reports of his supposed 'success' with a young boy Kirk Murphy. He also neglected to get consent from the family to use Kirk as the subject of his books and articles. These books and articles are often cited by pray away the gay groups and so-called 'reparative' therapy people like NARTH and Exodus. It's all fraud.

As for your other link:



While people such as Fred Phelp s(God Hates ****) declare where they stand from the first
instant, these “ministers of propaganda” seek to soothe their audience, taking the form of an concerned
physician while they spread their biases and lies. It is this crowd that can potentially have more of a
damaging effect on how America sees the gay community.

Dr. John R. Diggs is one of these distortion artists.

He recently published a study entitled The Health Risks of Gay Sex and it is featured on many religious conservative web sites as a thorough analysis of homosexual sex. While Diggs is an M.D., he is also co-chair of the Massachusetts Physician Resource Council, which is a part of the Massachusetts Family Institute, another so-called traditional values organization. Despite his credentials, Diggs’s real aim is to smear gays and lesbians
"The Health Risks of Gay Sex is a distortion-ridden research propaganda piece in the vein of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (the legendary piece of propaganda that claimed that Jewish people were attempting to take over the world) that seeks to exploit fears and stereotypes about gays and lesbians."

It would be nice if you could actually do some fact checking before you post your vile propaganda.

Apparently facts and truth aren't terribly important to you in your zeal to vilify and besmirch gay people. And you call yourself a "Christian"?

Do you not know that.....slanderers..... will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Last edited by Ceist; 10-20-2011 at 05:19 AM..
Old 10-20-2011, 04:58 AM
17,853 posts, read 11,749,501 times
Reputation: 4113
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I wonder why after reading your posts on this thread I feel like I need a shower? Bigots always seem to have that effect on me.
Me too. Revolting isn't it?
Old 10-20-2011, 05:01 AM
17,853 posts, read 11,749,501 times
Reputation: 4113
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
As a parent, I am concerned for my children, what they are taught - in school & in media.
As a parent, I care about ALL children - & want the best for them, which involves being raised by the same 2 that created them... a FATHER & a MOTHER.

As a citizen, I want the best for others, which involves health. Homosexual practices statistically show to contribute greatly to sickness & death. Two of my friends died from AIDS.
Legalizing gay marriage encourages homosexual practices, which sometimes are not harmful, but in the majority cases, statistically prove to be harmful.
No. You appear to only care about spreading vile malicious propaganda.

If you truly cared, you would seek the facts from reputable sources, not anti-gay propaganda websites.
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