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Old 10-05-2011, 11:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
Just because modern day "Christians" don't have a problem with extramarital sex, doesn't mean God agrees. Fornication and Adultery are still condemned in the New Testament. Any sex out side of a marriage between one man and one woman is sin. Lots of people who go to church claim or think they are Christians, but are not. It has always been this way that Christian churches are full of unbelievers.

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Of course God is glad to forgive if they repent and ask for forgiveness and change. Otherwise, its curtains.
Another person using a proven mistranslated verse to condemn people. How atypical
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:09 PM
 
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[quote=Theophane;21076986]
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
I suppose that depends on whether you ask Paul or the writer of the Gospel of Matthew and his depiction of Jesus ....



That proves you aren't familiar with the Gospel of Jesus, not even a little bit.
I must disagree - I'm very familiar with the "Gospel of Jesus". There's a slight problem, however: it was reported by 4 different writers, and they all report it in different ways, with different agendas, and with different words and theologies attributed to Jesus. Maybe you're referring to a "Harmony of the Gospels" when you refer to the "Gospel of Jesus"? Having a baptist background - I am familiar with the approach.

In addition to the Good News being reported by 4 different writers (and this is just the 4 that made it into the orthodox canon, let's not forget) - the writer of the Gospel of Matthew vociferously disagrees with Paul on matters concerning the Torah, and whether it's laws should be kept or not. Was the writer of Matthew familiar with Paul's writings? It's not possible to say with any certainty. One thing is sure: if he knew them, he did not agree with them.

How does the writer of Matthew see Torah, the writings of the Tanakh and the law?
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets: I have not come to abolish but to fullfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of heaven." (Gospel of Matthew 5:17-20)

Now - before the usual apologetics is made that "fullfill" and "until all is accomplished" refers to the death and resurrection of Jesus, the context, and other teachings about the Last Judgement, clearly preclude such ideas. The Interpreter's Bible, Vol. 7 in speaking about verse 19 ("whoever breaks on of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same") says "The saying could easily have been used against Paul." (p. 293) And that's exactly right. Jesus appears to have been more lenient than the Pharisees on how to apply the Tanakah to the people, even though the Pharisees were already very lenient in their application when compared to the Saducees, Zealots and the Qumran Community. From the following section in the Gospel of Matthew we see Jesus at once relaxing some of the traditional laws and making others more harsh. He is proposing a new interpretation, BUT as he makes very, very clear: the law and the prophets (the Tanakh essentially) is not to be done away with, and those who attempt to do so will be "least in the kingdom". It doesn't get more specific than that. Again, consulting the Interpreter's Bible (though a host of other sources could be in it's stead) we have

"Jesus accepted the O.T. law in principle and asumed that it was the permanently binding revelation of God; but he made the ritual commandments subordinate to moral duties, opposed the development of purity laws, and went further than the Pharisees in relaxing the sabbath laws to meet human needs. In fact, his emphasis on the spirit of the law, and his occasional quoting of one passage against another, necesarrily involved a new view of Torah. Was he fully conscious of the implications of this? His opponents, at least, realized that his teaching endangered their position. (See on 15:1-20) When his movements finally impinged on the Gentile world, his teaching was carried to its logical conclusion by Stephen, the Hellenists, and Paul." (p. 291)

Now, why would Jesus assume that Torah was permanent (or, at least lasting until the Judgement which he believed was immanent)? What does the Torah, itself, say? In many places, various things were declared explicitly eternal: sabbath, certain festivals, passover, the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system, etc... olam. In other references, especially in Deuteronomy, it is stated that the revelations of God are to be followed throughout the ages.

How about more from the Gospel of Matthew's Jesus? In the Gospel of Matthew 19:16-22 is the story of the rich man who wishes to enter the kingdom. What is he told? "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He also tells him to give away all of his money, in addition to following him. How much more explicit must these words be?

Paul disagrees with this - as is well known by almost every single Christian who claims they have no obligation to follow the Law, and thus lives a life unburdoned by those pesky eternal commandments of God. Well - pick your patron: Jesus or Paul? Are you a Christian, or are you a Pauline? I think most people fall under the category of the latter. Whoever wrote the Gospel of Matthew clearly and explicity disagreed with Paul's writings concerning "the law and the prophets". If you believe he was transmitting the actual words of Jesus - that puts us in a pickle.

So, I am familiar with the "Gospel of Jesus" - but I'm not a fan of harmonizing different writers when they clearly contradict each other. Only the most tortured interpretation and apologetics can match the two.
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:48 PM
 
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When the "word" was written girls were getting married off and having babies in the teens so no sex before marriage coincided with biological imperatives. The problem is, we've pushed marriage far past the age in which teenagers are BIOLOGICALLY ready to have sex.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
When the "word" was written girls were getting married off and having babies in the teens so no sex before marriage coincided with biological imperatives. The problem is, we've pushed marriage far past the age in which teenagers are BIOLOGICALLY ready to have sex.
Sexual maturity or financial security?

Will Durant has some interesting comments on the subject when he discusses India, child marriage and Ghandi:

"The child was hardly born when the parents began to think of its marriage....Nor was marriage to be left to the whim of individual choice or romantic love; it must be arranged by the parents before the fever of sex should have time to precipitate a union doomed, in the Hindu view, to disillusionment and bitterness...

The early maturity of the Hindu, making a girl of twelve as old as a girl of fourteen or fifteen in American, created a difficult problem of moral and social order. Should marriage be arranged to coincide with sexual maturity, or should it be postponed, as in America, until the male arrives at economic maturity? The first solution apparantly weakens the national physique, unduly accelerates the growth of population, and sacrifices the woman almost completely to reproduction; the second solution leaves the problems of unnatural delay, sexual frustration, prostitution, and veneral disease. The Hindus chose child marriage as the lesser evil, and tried to mitigate its dangers by establishing, between the marriage and its consummation, a period in which the bride should remain with her parents until the coming of puberty." [BOLD emphasis is my own]
(Will Durant, The Story of Civilization Vol. 1: Our Oriental Heritage, 1935, p. 489)

Granted - a lot has happened in India since he wrote, but it sheds some interesting light on how nations choose to treat the question of "when is someone mature?". And in case you haven't been reading Will Durant's fantastic series of monumental books taking a philosophical approach to history: SHAME ON YOU! Go to your nearest Goodwill Bookstore or Library bookstore and pick them all up, for very cheap, considering they are out of print, and that is where they usually end up. I'm sure some members of this forum are very familiar with him - but if not..... spend 20 bucks. It's the price of 4 Extra Value Meals..
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:13 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,328,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Christians aren't waiting to have sex anymore? Did they ever? I went to a Catholic high school in the fifties, and I have never seen a randier bunch girls since...Maybe something to do with the fact that sex was forbidden I think.
In high school I dated a preachers daughter (didn't know her dad was a preacher when I first asked her out) but I certainly learned a great deal during the 2 or 3 months I dated her......

To suppress normal urges, or feel guilty about them, over an ancient superstition is as absurd as the superstition itself.
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Ah, yes the famous preacher's daughter, first cousin to the farmer's daughter. There are more than a few stories about those two.
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Old 10-06-2011, 12:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
In high school I dated a preachers daughter (didn't know her dad was a preacher when I first asked her out) but I certainly learned a great deal during the 2 or 3 months I dated her......

To suppress normal urges, or feel guilty about them, over an ancient superstition is as absurd as the superstition itself.
Oh come now - the very first command is "Bear fruit and be many and fill the earth and subdue it!"

In the 1st chapter of Genesis we have a lovely little story of unwed primal humanity and their holy, sacred charge: Go forth and .... well, you know..

So God created humankind in his image,
in the image of God did he create it,
male and female he created them.
God blessed them,
God said to them:
Bear fruit and be many and fill the earth
and subdue it!
(Genesis 1:27-28; TFBOM, Fox)

A little while later - is this a sexual pun, or a fun jab at competing creation accounts and their creation of the universe through sexual unions and geneaologies? It is the very ending of the 1st Creative account:

These are the begettings of the heavens and the earth: their being created.
(Genesis 2:4; ibid)

Hmmm.... could be a bit of both!
As for the whole "bearing fruit" thing and youngsters saving themselves for marriage, only in the 2nd Creative account do we get the idea that the first man and woman were husband and wife. It was possibly implied in the 1st Creative account - but it's not certain. Most fundamentalists will claim that the 2nd Creative Account is just a more detailed view of the creation of mankind, but this just smacks in the face of the observable differences between the two accounts.
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Old 10-06-2011, 12:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Sexual maturity or financial security?
Interesting link, I suppose, but doesn't have much to do with my comment.
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:22 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,166,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Interesting link, I suppose, but doesn't have much to do with my comment.
It has everything to do with your comment on marriage, teenagers and sexual maturity.
I give a reason WHY this happens in modern societies.
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Old 12-24-2011, 07:21 AM
 
3,432 posts, read 8,522,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reed067 View Post
I have to agree with you here. I think people who marry & haven't sowed thier oats are more likey to cheat. Once they find out that they are not getting what they want in bed.
I agree too. I threw away some years of my life being celibate, and I regret it. It actually caused problems in my marriage because I felt I haven't experimented enough. I also graduated high school a virgin, so I became a late bloomer and didn't figure out things until my mid-to-late 20's that most people have figured out in their teens.

I think as long as you're doing it responsibly (using protection), there is no reason to wait.
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