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Old 10-01-2011, 12:35 AM
 
Location: The United States of Amnesia
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Why did God create Lucifer knowing that he was going to betray him and become a tempter of humankind???
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Old 10-01-2011, 04:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Perhaps because it is like looking in a mirror.

A reflection of one's inner self. To us Muslims Shaytan can be any sapient being who has free will, including our self. What is in our own hearts and minds can be very frightening.
I think that's a very good thought. The frequent carton of the person with a little angel on one shoulder and a little demon on the other, one appealing to decency and the other to selfishness perhaps points up the times we find ourselves having to make moral choices. It's not surprising that it get anthropomorphised (that term gets less spellable every time I use it)
especially after the post Jude speculations about fallen angels and the stuff in Dante and Milton that poetically elaborates of hellfire punishment and rebellion of angels, very little of which is actually related to the Bible as I was surprised to find.

That said, Stan is much more a politically useful figure for anything tricky for theists. Anything that can't be made to look like good publicity for God is blamed on satan.
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Old 10-01-2011, 04:42 AM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
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Originally Posted by Sith Klato View Post
Why did God create Lucifer knowing that he was going to betray him and become a tempter of humankind???

The way I got it figured is so that humans would run to him so that he could more of less play hero. Same reason he created evil every hero needs a villan.
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Old 10-01-2011, 05:19 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Perhaps because it is like looking in a mirror.

A reflection of one's inner self. To us Muslims Shaytan can be any sapient being who has free will, including our self. What is in our own hearts and minds can be very frightening.
that's true. people usually take themselves seriously; it wouldnt seem very good to make fun of yourself.

besides, Satan is a major part of their folklore. making fun of Satan might be like Ancient Greeks making fun of Medusa or any of their malevolent gods, or like a zoroastrian making fun of making fun of Angra Mainyu. makung fun of Satan coukd be seen as making fun of Christianity.
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Old 10-01-2011, 06:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sith Klato View Post
Why did God create Lucifer knowing that he was going to betray him and become a tempter of humankind???
When the Book of Job was made into the play J.B. the playwright had this line, which is a good summation of the major problems in the book:
"If God is Good, then he is not God.
If God is God, then he is not Good."

This points to the theodicy issue again: how could an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good God create a malevolent being?

The writer of the 1st Creative Account (Genesis 1) gets God off of the hook, in regards to evil: if you take the first clause as dependent ("In the beginning of God's creating," or "When God began to create"), rather than independent ("In the beginning, God created the h and the e."), then chaos and evil were pre-existant to God's creative acts. He did not create them.

If you follow some of the prophets - God is responsible for everything: good and evil.
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Old 10-01-2011, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
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Originally Posted by whoppers View Post

The writer of the 1st Creative Account (Genesis 1) gets God off of the hook, in regards to evil: if you take the first clause as dependent ("In the beginning of God's creating," or "When God began to create"), rather than independent ("In the beginning, God created the h and the e."), then chaos and evil were pre-existant to God's creative acts. He did not create them.

If you follow some of the prophets - God is responsible for everything: good and evil.
Biblcally speaking the bible states that God did indeed create evil. God even admitted that he did.
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Old 10-01-2011, 07:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by reed067 View Post
Biblcally speaking the bible states that God did indeed create evil. God even admitted that he did.
It depends on which book and verse we're talking about - the Bible is not 100% in agreement with itself on most issues. For instance - compare the virulent anti-Moabite and foreign-wife stance found in Ezra/Nehemiah (who reference the Torah) against the Book of Ruth, in which a Moabitess not only marries an Israelite, but becomes one of the models for womanly and wifely behavior, AND becomes an ancestor of King David. Most scholars understand the Book of Ruth as being written AFTER Ezra/Nehemiah as a direct argument against the horrible anti-foreigner stance.

This is just one example of divergent views. In my earlier post on the creation of Evil - I gave another example. Christians may claim the Bible is universal and consistent in it's message, but anyone who really grasps the documentary nature of the Bible knows better.
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Old 10-01-2011, 08:18 AM
 
Location: midwest
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Guys, true Christians are not afraid of the devil. And the devil has been called many things, which is why you don't seem to find much about him, but there really is an incredible amount of writing about him when you look for it. Keep in mind the purpose of the scriptures is to share what Christians believe to be inspired by God for the purposes of teaching, rebuking and growing in faith (a paraphrase out of the NT)... It is not to focus on the enemy, learn all about him, study him and capture his every involvement in world history. Make sense? The Bible wasn't written to focus on the devil... it was written to focus on God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Unless Christians have taken a new interest in the Bible you will find most of the mainstream denominations place little emphasis on Bible study. Catholics make up over 1/2 the world's Catholics and at least up until the time I left Catholicism in the early 1960s Catholics were actually discouraged from reading the Bible. You will also find little bible interest among the Lutherans, Episcopalians and Church of England.
I understand that people have really different experiences from each other within Christianity and outside of it, but be careful not to throw billions of those claiming to be Christian into the same assumption. Realize that your experience in Christianity is a small one, likely a western one, and obviously a large denomination. It does not represent every christian, and I would argue that most people claiming to be christian, are not. This is the biggest reason others are turned away: they don't know what they should be seeing because what they see and hear does not reflect what the teacchings seem to say, or the teachings are misrepresented all together by those that do not understand it, likely because they were not very christian to begin with, and the vicious cycle continues. Chrisitanity turns more people away, or misleads them than the faith cares to be concerned about. It is a concern for me especially because I feel called to preach as a pastor... and I see more corruption, manipulation and disjoined denominations within my own faith than I can stand.

True christians ar a rare breed. Satan is very real... but there is nothing to fear about him.
Nothing.
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Old 10-01-2011, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
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Originally Posted by whoppers View Post

This is just one example of divergent views. In my earlier post on the creation of Evil - I gave another example. Christians may claim the Bible is universal and consistent in it's message, but anyone who really grasps the documentary nature of the Bible knows better.

There are different versions of the bible your right. One version says evil one says, chaos one says claimity. I think Christians tend to pick the one that doesn't sound so bad.
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Old 10-01-2011, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
No because their exposure to the myths, fiction etc, would stand alone and actually make sense to them. Non-religious beliefs seem to be easy to catch. It is amazing at how many non-biblical quotes, some Christians believe came from the Bible.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" is not in the bible. The quote is a proverb found in the poem "Five Hundred Points of Good Husbandry" by Thomas Tusser
"God helps those who help themselves" is not in the bible. The quote is by Sidney Algernon (1622-1683) in his "Discourses on Government."
"God helps them that help themselves" is not in the bible. The quote is by Benjamin Franklin in "Poor Richard's Almanac" of 1757.
"Cleanliness is next to godliness" is not in the bible.
"Money is the root of all evil" 1 Timothy 6:10 says "For the love of money is the root of all evil" KJV
"Spare the rod, spoil the child" Proverbs 13:24 says "He that spareth his rod hateth his son" KJV
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" Matthew 7:12 says "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" KJV

Add to it these quotes from HERE

SAYINGS
Moderation in all things.
Once saved, always saved.
Better to cast your seed....
Spare the rod, spoil the child.
To thine ownself be true.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
God helps those who help themselves.
Money is the root of all evil.
Cleanliness is next to godliness.
This too shall pass.
God works in mysterious ways.
The eye is the window to the soul.
The lion shall lay down with the lamb.
Pride comes before the fall.

Miscellaneous

The Three Wisemen
The Sinner's Prayer
Wedding Vows
The Seven Deadly Sins

All of these things are commonly believed to come from the bible, but are not in the bible. People seem to have a knack for associating anything that sounds Biblical, as being from the Bible. So it is with beliefs about Satan.
Are you saying Satan is unbiblical?

Better be sure about that.
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