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Old 10-14-2011, 12:43 AM
 
646 posts, read 530,171 times
Reputation: 46

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
The constitution says that you are allowed to trespass on my property, I think not.

But for those foolish enough to ignore the sign beside the front door (NO SOLICITATION OF ANY KIND), place there primarily for the politicals, will have it explained to them immediately and bluntly.
That sign does not apply to Jehovah's Witnesses because they are not "solicitors." People need to know the difference. The Law does. It does not recognize evangelizing as trespassing. If it did, then ANY unexpected caller, like a census-taker or a political canvasser or pollster, is a trespasser. Since the Law grants evangelizers the right to call on private homes, the homeowner must see to it that he does not violate those rights.

SUPREME COURT:
"There is no distinction between the rights of persons living in single homes and those living in multiple dwellings or apartments. The residents of multiple dwellings or apartments have as many constitutional rights as-do the residents of single dwellings. It is a mere matter of distance between the tenants' living quarters. In the case of an apartment building the space between adjacent families' quarters is a matter of inches. In the case of a privately-owned tract with residences and homes situated thereon the property is used for the very same purpose as is the tract on which an apartment building is situated. In both cases the tract provides homes for a group of people.
Since the distinction between apartment houses and smaller residences is a distinction without a difference, a landlord does not have the right to order Jehovah's witnesses to stop calling on his tenants living in apartment houses.
The argument that the halls of the apartment .building have not been thrown open to the "public" for meetlngs like the public streets and parks is false. The analogy is factitious.
It is not necessary that the means of ingress and egress to a door be dedicated and opened to the public generally to make such passages available to one preaching the gospel from door to door under the guarantees of the constitution.
Indeed no private sidewalk that leads over the yard or lawn of any dwelling has been dedicated for public purposes. Yet it has never been argued that one making use of such private sidewalk or paths can be deprived of his constitutional right of going from door to door distributing literature purely because such places have not been opened up to the public. Since it is not necessary to have private sidewalks and paths dedicated to the public in order to make them available to carry on door-to-door work at single dwellings, it is not necessary to show that the hallways of apartment buildings have been dedicated to the public before using them for the same purposes.
This question was considered and answered favorably to Jehovah's witnesses by the Supreme Court of the United States in
Tucker v. Texas, 326 U.S. 517, 518-519, 520, 66 S. Ct. 274, 275, 90 L. Ed., 274 (1946). Also:
Marsh v. Alabama, 326 U.S. 501-502, 503-504, 505, 506, 507-508, 509, 66 S. Ct. 276, 277, 278,279,280,90 L Ed. 265 (1946)
Mass.:
Commonwealth v. Richardson 313 Mass. 632, 48 N.E. 2d 678 (1943)."

There are many more court cases that could be listed here that have been won by evangelizers.

In any case, they usually leave peacefully when asked to do so because their work is peaceful. Things change for many homeowners over time and even attitudes change. So, they keep returning.
What you dislike for yourself might be welcomed by others.

It is a foolish person who picks a fight on behalf of others.

“As one grabbing hold of the ears of a dog is anyone passing by that is becoming furious at the quarrel that is not his.” (Proverbs 26:17)



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Wilson
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:53 AM
 
646 posts, read 530,171 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
He wanted to beat you up?
Yes! He grabbed me and tried to head-butt me. I had to knock him out.
Quote:
Now that's a shock..... did you phrase your warning about the dock in the form of a proverb hee hee! Or shove it down his throat how you were right, he was wrong, and that's what he gets? Hmm.... Too many years of being a member of an exclusive "organization" seems to have given you juuuuuust the right amount of arrogance - it drips off of you like sweat.
"Phrase" my warning? You joking?
Before he got wet, the man was too far away for any type of dialogue. I made that quite clear.

What do you think is dripping off you now?


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Wilson.
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:20 AM
 
646 posts, read 530,171 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
Eh, they knock on my door, they're there illegally and I'd be within my rights to call law enforcement to remove them.
The law will not remove them because they have not violated it.


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Old 10-14-2011, 09:35 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,156,403 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
Yes! He grabbed me and tried to head-butt me. I had to knock him out.
"Phrase" my warning? You joking?
Before he got wet, the man was too far away for any type of dialogue. I made that quite clear.

What do you think is dripping off you now?


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Wilson.

I have many friends who are Jehovah's Witnesses (or say they claim for themselves in their humble way ) and they all seem to share the same psychological trait: they think they're being oppressed by evil forces everywhere, this proves their correctness as "witnesses" and they can't imagine why people dislike them. Would you agree with this?

They have attempted to take over the Israelite's status as a chosen people - this is very evident from their literature and behavior. Very rarely does one find a positive portrayal of jews in their literature. Frequently it attempts to equate the 1st Century Christian writer's views on how the "scribes and Pharisees" acted and thought, with all other jews. Almost every other magazine has a lovely little article on how the JWs were persecuted in the Holocause - to the point that an ignorant reader would start to believe that nobody else's persecution was important. Every other magazine seems to have an article on how the JWs are being persectued for their beliefs, and how they fight/fought back and the courts agreed with them/or didn't and that makes them right, etc.

You have to understand how other people view them: they claim that all of Christendom is evil, they take the typical antiquated stance that the jews were "Christ-Killers" and thus deserved being stripped of their Chosen People status and later persecutions, the majority of references in their literature are from books published in the 1800s, they reject many aspects of modern medicine as part of some vast conspiracy to either create genetic monsters or seduce JWs, they keep predicting the end of the world with malicious glee and end up wrong (which produces lots of exegetical wrangling and editing of previous literature), they go door to door and knock on people's doors and hand them condescending literature, AND to top it all off: they insist that their understanding of scripture is the only correct one.

Now - don't get me wrong: I love my Jehovah's Witness friends - WHEN they are being themselves. Most of the time, they are simply parroting information learned from JW teaching material and rarely have an honest, original thought in their heads that they let out. That's a shame. I feel that whenever I have a conversation with them, it's a just an opening for proselytization: I can literally count the amount of time before they slip something into the conversation that leads to traditional JW doctrine (whether it be a news story on transfusion, how bad birthdays are, etc).

It's a fact: they come off as extremely arrogant. It shouldn't be surprising that people don't care for them - in fact, this just makes them more correct heh heh! After all - "persecution is evidence of righteousness".

By the way - I'm sorry you were assaulted. My joke was in poor taste - I admit. Forgive me, please.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:45 AM
 
646 posts, read 530,171 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
The worst offenders are the christians, especially the christians that have missionaries in foreign countries. I can think of nothing more arrogant and egregious than these people attempting to force their superstitions into the culture of another country.
And aren't you guilty of doing the same thing? What do you do with the thing called "Democracy?" Why kill so many hundreds of thousands pushing it, shoving it, cramming it into their world?
Listening to Mark Levin, Rush Limbaugh, Neil Boortz, Savage and the like, convinces me that it is a myth, a superstition, a type of religion that is not working.
The same goes for the other side.

Do you think it is working?


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Wilson.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:01 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,156,403 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
And aren't you guilty of doing the same thing? What do you do with the thing called "Democracy?" Why kill so many hundreds of thousands pushing it, shoving it, cramming it into their world?
Listening to Mark Levin, Rush Limbaugh, Neil Boortz, Savage and the like, convinces me that it is a myth, a superstition, a type of religion that is not working.
The same goes for the other side.

Do you think it is working?


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Wilson.

I am not personally responsible for spreading democracy around the world - I believe it's a vain thing to do, and history shows that democracy is not always the best option for a country. This - however - does not automatically throw 'democracy' into a category of 'failed human government'.

With that said - in this country, I have the option to disagree with some of my country's foreign policies and make my voice heard. You - unfortunately - do not have the option of expressing an opinion contrary to official JW doctrine. You also actively proclaim their doctrines door to door. I understand that you feel that Jehovah is teaching everyone a great, grand lesson on how humans are incapable of ruling themselves, so every failure of a system of government you see as a sign of this - but I don't have such a negative attitude and sit back waiting for the End Times to prove Jehovah right, and mankind wrong....

So - it's not surprise that you criticize Democracy, with your bad analogy of foreign policy...
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:57 PM
 
646 posts, read 530,171 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
I have many friends who are Jehovah's Witnesses (or say they claim for themselves in their humble way ) and they all seem to share the same psychological trait: they think they're being oppressed by evil forces everywhere, this proves their correctness as "witnesses" and they can't imagine why people dislike them. Would you agree with this?
No! We know why. How could you know what we think, anyway? People are either righteous or wicked.
.
The world shows us hostility, we show it Christian love.
The history of mistreatment meted out to servants of Jehovah goes back as far as Eden. One righteous man in a brand new world - murdered. One righteous family in a pre-flood world - preserved alive. One righteous family in the region of Sodom - mistreated and threatened with rape. ONE righteous man (Job) in the whole world of mankind - leaving a record of faithfulness unmatched by any single individual until Christ. One righteous nation in a post-flood world - repeatedly attacked and threatened with extinction.
.
To the murderous Jews, just before his execution, Stephen said:
“Which one of the prophets did YOUR forefathers not persecute? Yes, they killed those who made announcement in advance concerning the coming of the righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers YOU have now become, YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.”” (Acts 7:52-53)
.
Jesus came to earth on a most noble cause. How was HE treated? I think you know. Persecuted and murdered - just like most of his immediate disciples.
.
Jesus repeatedly told his disciples that they would be persecuted. For instance, he said: “A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me [which they certainly did], they will persecute you also.” (John 15:20; 16:2; Matthew 10:22, 23) Moreover, Christ left no doubt about the chief instigator of this persecution when saying to one of the “seven congregations”: “Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison that you may be fully put to the test.” (Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) Yet, what is the Devil’s aim in persecuting witnesses of Jehovah?
.
Yes - his disciples were forewarned of the consequences for following him. They volunteered anyway. You got that kind of courage?
“COVERED with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.” (The Annals, Roman historian Tacitus, Book XV, paragraph 44)
.
“. . .Yes, others received their trial by mockings and scourgings, indeed, more than that, by bonds and prisons. They were stoned, they were tried, they were sawn asunder, they died by slaughter with the sword, they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, while they were in want, in tribulation, under ill-treatment; and the world was not worthy of them. They wandered about in deserts and mountains and caves and dens of the earth.” (Hebrews 11:36-38)
.
“JEHOVAH’S Christian witnesses are usually well liked as persons by their acquaintances. Many admit that they are good neighbors and do not cause any trouble. On the other hand, some hate them, not for what they are as persons, but for what they believe, and especially because they talk freely about their beliefs. Actually, it would be strange if the Witnesses, as Christians, were not bitterly opposed, because Jesus told his disciples: “Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you. Bear in mind the word I said to you, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also; if they have observed my word, they will observe yours also.”—John 15:19, 20.
.
One reason for this persecution is that the world has its practices that it does not want to give up. The Bible truths and principles preached by Jehovah’s Witnesses make many people feel condemned. (Compare Hebrews 11:7; Matthew 14:3-5; John 8:45-47.) They do not understand why the change comes about in an associate of theirs who becomes one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. On this point the apostle Peter says: “The time that has passed by is sufficient for you to have worked out the will of the nations when you proceeded in deeds of loose conduct, lusts, excesses with wine, revelries, drinking matches, and illegal idolatries. Because you do not continue running with them in this course to the same low sink of debauchery, they are puzzled and go on speaking abusively of you.”(1 Pet. 4:3, 4)
.
In all of this Jehovah’s Witnesses are not being sanctimonious or self-righteous. Neither are they seeking persecution or martyrdom. They love and enjoy life and want to keep living in peace. Therefore they devote themselves to learning Bible principles and living according to them. (1 Pet. 3:10, 11) And they also want others to enjoy the fine things that they have found, and to have a hope and a purpose in life. So they call at the homes of the people because they do not want to overlook anyone and thereby fail to offer every person the life-giving message of the “good news.” (Compare Acts 20:26, 27; Ezekiel 33:2-5.) They call repeatedly, because they know that circumstances change, and a person not listening today may experience a change in his situation and in his thinking later on.—Eccl. 11:6.
.
It is actually out of love for the people that the Witnesses call at their homes. They know that people’s lives are in danger and they want to help them. They are not making any personal profit, but they have the joy of seeing individuals learn the truth and take a stand on the side of Jehovah’s universal sovereignty. They have received free and they give free.—Matt. 10:8.” (WT 77 11/15 pp. 685-686)



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Old 10-14-2011, 02:59 PM
 
646 posts, read 530,171 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
I They have attempted to take over the Israelite's status as a chosen people - this is very evident from their literature and behavior. Very rarely does one find a positive portrayal of jews in their literature.
Maybe that’s because the Jews have been unable to give a positive portrayal of themselves. Have you thought of that? I have to wonder why you are not criticizing THEIR self-righteousness!
Quote:
Frequently it attempts to equate the 1st Century Christian writer's views on how the "scribes and Pharisees" acted and thought, with all other jews. Almost every other magazine has a lovely little article on how the JWs were persecuted in the Holocause - to the point that an ignorant reader would start to believe that nobody else's persecution was important. Every other magazine seems to have an article on how the JWs are being persectued for their beliefs, and how they fight/fought back and the courts agreed with them/or didn't and that makes them right, etc.
How we are perceived by the rest of the world is of little concern to us. We don’t expect it to get any better and we are certainly not seeking the approval of the world. If we were ever accepted by the rest of the world, we will begin wondering what we’re doing wrong.
Quote:
You have to understand how other people view them: they claim that all of Christendom is evil,
All of Christendom’s actions continue to prove it. The do not disapprove the killing of each other in war - do they? In point of fact, both sides even pray for the blessing of their God in order to destroy one another. Is that a demonstration of Christianity as outlined in the Bible?
Quote:
they take the typical antiquated stance that the jews were "Christ-Killers" and thus deserved being stripped of their Chosen People status and later persecutions,
Are you now going to resort to falsehood? Show me something in our publications that says so - please!
Quote:
…….they reject many aspects of modern medicine as part of some vast conspiracy to either create genetic monsters or seduce JWs,
Your criticism of Jehovah’s Witnesses is not unexpected, but your resorting to utter nonsense demeans your effort to make things better - if that is what you’re trying to do. If it isn’t, what’s your point?
Quote:
they go door to door and knock on people's doors and hand them condescending literature, AND to top it all off: they insist that their understanding of scripture is the only correct one.
The door-to-door method comes directly from Jesus Christ. We won’t even attempt to change it.
Quote:
Now - don't get me wrong: I love my Jehovah's Witness friends - WHEN they are being themselves. Most of the time, they are simply parroting information learned from JW teaching material and rarely have an honest, original thought in their heads that they let out. That's a shame. I feel that whenever I have a conversation with them, it's a just an opening for proselytization: I can literally count the amount of time before they slip something into the conversation that leads to traditional JW doctrine (whether it be a news story on transfusion, how bad birthdays are, etc).
I hope you don’t get ME wrong, but love is also honest. Are you? Do your friends know how you REALLY feel about them? Why engage is such duplicity? You don’t have to put up with them and they won’t hold it against you.
Quote:
It's a fact: they come off as extremely arrogant. It shouldn't be surprising that people don't care for them - in fact, this just makes them more correct heh heh! After all - "persecution is evidence of righteousness".
Judge for yourself:
“. . .At this they gave heed to him, and they summoned the apostles, flogged them, and ordered them to stop speaking upon the basis of Jesus’ name, and let them go. These, therefore, went their way from before the San′he·drin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy to be dishonored in behalf of his name. And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.”(Acts 5:40-42)
.
This is straight from the Scriptures.
You see why the Jews thought they were crazy - why the world thinks WE are? While we do not court hostility and violence, it does not frighten us because, to be counted WORTHY to suffer for the sake of the Good news is tremendously rewarding. It validates our integrity.
Quote:
By the way - I'm sorry you were assaulted. My joke was in poor taste - I admit. Forgive me, please.
No offense taken.

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Old 10-14-2011, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,057 posts, read 29,764,336 times
Reputation: 10455
For a thread that started out asking for thoughts on proselytizing, we have devolved into a forum for proselytizing. Should've been shut down days ago.
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:17 PM
 
646 posts, read 530,171 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
I am not personally responsible for spreading democracy around the world - I believe it's a vain thing to do, and history shows that democracy is not always the best option for a country. This - however - does not automatically throw 'democracy' into a category of 'failed human government'.

With that said - in this country, I have the option to disagree with some of my country's foreign policies and make my voice heard. You - unfortunately - do not have the option of expressing an opinion contrary to official JW doctrine. You also actively proclaim their doctrines door to door. I understand that you feel that Jehovah is teaching everyone a great, grand lesson on how humans are incapable of ruling themselves, so every failure of a system of government you see as a sign of this - but I don't have such a negative attitude and sit back waiting for the End Times to prove Jehovah right, and mankind wrong....
Jehovah is always right and we will continue to proclaim just that.
BTW - what human efforts give you cause for confidence?
Quote:
So - it's not surprise that you criticize Democracy, with your bad analogy of foreign policy...
That post was no directed to you but seeing that you jumped on it, have you ever heard Limbaugh's description of democracy?
He said it is nothing but mob rule.
Do you agree with him?

I thought it over and then tried to see if I could illustrate that description.
This is what I came up with:

Five men are walking down the street and they spot a beautiful girl ahead of them near a park.
One of the group says: "Let's rape her!" and they all rush toward her. Another of their group says: "Wait! Let's take as vote!"
It is three to two in favor of rape and she gets raped by all five.
Neil Boortz continuously describes the public and their majority vote as "ignorant" and "ill-informed."

Is this a better analogy?

Could you describe it differently?



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