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Old 10-13-2011, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,940,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
No, that's ridiculous. Many atheists are appreciative of, and even overwhelmed by, the beauty and subtlety of the universe, the mechanisms by which the parts interact, and the literally unimaginable scale at both the upper and lower limits.

Worship? Act as though the universe, the earth, or some galaxy is an conscious, intentional entity that wills our existence and wants us to be happy? No. Ridiculous. All these things just are. There is no more reason to worship the Andromeda Galaxy than there is to worship the intricate arrangement of sand crystals on the beach, or the indomitable reproductive drive that powers the cancer cells in someone who doesn't even know they're there yet, yet will ultimately kill him. The galaxy is as indifferent to our existence as the cancer.
Let me guess.... Why would God create all of this and then leave us alone? For that answer we can turn to Pandeism.

Quote:
Pandeism or Pan-Deism (from Ancient Greek: πάν pan "all" and Latin: deus meaning "God" in the sense of deism), is a term describing beliefs incorporating or mixing logically reconcilable elements of pantheism (that "God", or its metaphysical equivalent, is identical to the Universe) and deism (that the creator-god who designed the Universe no longer exists in a status where it can be reached, and can instead be confirmed only by reason). It is therefore most particularly the belief that the Creator of the Universe actually became the Universe, and so ceased to exist as a separate and conscious entity.[1][2]
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,099 posts, read 10,672,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
Let me guess.... Why would God create all of this and then leave us alone? For that answer we can turn to Pandeism.

Quote:
Pandeism or Pan-Deism (from Ancient Greek: πάν pan "all" and Latin: deus meaning "God" in the sense of deism), is a term describing beliefs incorporating or mixing logically reconcilable elements of pantheism (that "God", or its metaphysical equivalent, is identical to the Universe) and deism (that the creator-god who designed the Universe no longer exists in a status where it can be reached, and can instead be confirmed only by reason). It is therefore most particularly the belief that the Creator of the Universe actually became the Universe, and so ceased to exist as a separate and conscious entity.[1][2]
Pandeism or Pan-Deism (from Ancient Greek: πάν pan "all" and Latin: deus meaning "God" in the sense of deism), is a term describing beliefs incorporating or mixing logically reconcilable elements of pantheism (that "God", or its metaphysical equivalent, is identical to the Universe) and deism (that the creator-god who designed the Universe no longer exists in a status where it can be reached, and can instead be confirmed only by reason). It is therefore most particularly the belief that the Creator of the Universe actually became the Universe, and so ceased to exist as a separate and conscious entity.
If I recall, the whole discussion of pandeism came about in response to a challenge asking you to point out a religion that is based in fact.

Since you have still failed to present any evidence that there ever was such an entity as a god or a creator, you still fail on that score.

Since you haven't demonstrated any evidence of a creator, and the quote you provided fails to answer even the question you posed (why would a creator do this?) you're really not answering anything.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:30 PM
 
118 posts, read 94,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus-Perdita View Post
Faith is to believe despite evidence in something. Usually, when it comes to religion the something ends up being something quite important. Something we live our lives around and plan around. Something that influences perhaps not our everyday decisions but perhaps the big and important ones. (How we deal with the death of loved ones, how we tell someone we love we want to be committed etc)

Faith is powerful stuff. Have you ever considered one of Dawkin's arguments on faith? He says in his book that religion teaches it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding but I feel not all religions do that. I feel he is talking about faith and with that understanding let me quote a passage:



If faith teaches us to be satisfied without understanding or any factual evidence could that not be a harmful concept to teach?

If we consider 9/11



I am not implying it is always harmful. If we look at some other things we sometimes take on faith... IE Fire is hot and will burn you if you touch it... My question is actually not all that complicated.

Are we subverting a seemingly benevolent and protective thought process to allow us to rationalize and justify hatred?

Obviously this is not always the case... but unquestioned faithfulness... The idea that if you believe something so strongly and so emotionally that evidence is not needed or even allowed to color your beliefs seems like it could on occasion be immoral.

I realize Dawkins is a noted anti-theist but he admits in the same book to believing in a god of sorts... Perhaps not a personal god... but this particular idea he has seems to have some substance worth discussing.

I agree with almost everything you said, and I am a theist. I do not advocate blind faith... and I agree, it is dangerous, because it can essentially amount to brainwashing. I have found that questioning my beliefs has led me through difficult times, but in the end knowing WHY and HOW I believe what I do has made my faith exponentially stronger.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful post... I think you bring up some really good points.
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,940,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
If I recall, the whole discussion of pandeism came about in response to a challenge asking you to point out a religion that is based in fact.

Since you have still failed to present any evidence that there ever was such an entity as a god or a creator, you still fail on that score.

Since you haven't demonstrated any evidence of a creator, and the quote you provided fails to answer even the question you posed (why would a creator do this?) you're really not answering anything.

Pantheism is "based" on fact. Monist physicality Panthers believes all substance is physical. They believe everything needs to be able to be tested by physics.

Please, before you post, read more about pantheism and not just what an atheist says about it in some book or what Wikipedia sys about it.
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,099 posts, read 10,672,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
Pantheism is "based" on fact. Monist physicality Panthers believes all substance is physical. They believe everything needs to be able to be tested by physics.

Please, before you post, read more about pantheism and not just what an atheist says about it in some book or what Wikipedia sys about it.
This is very amusing.

You post a quote from Wikipedia as the basis for your claim, then you object to the fact that I'm basing my ideas on what it says in Wikipedia.

I do have to wonder what I'll hear from you next.

Last edited by jackmccullough; 10-13-2011 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 10-13-2011, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,940,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
This is very amusing.

You post a quote from Wikipedia as the basis for your claim, then you object to the fact that I'm basing my ideas on what it says in Wikipedia.

I do have to wonder what I'll hear from you next.
I used wikipedia because it is one of the few sites that atheists will accept. If I had quoted say a pantheist group, a college, some book, or alt. website you would have most likely claimed that it wasn't a reliable source.

Do yourself a favor and check out some other pantheism material. I have studied religion for the past 10 years, I have found that the best and only way to get reliable info about a religion is to talk to members or go to a church, meeting house, or event.

A book about religion written by an atheist isn't going to be as accurate as a religious person writing that same book.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,093,294 times
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Default A flurry of contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
Please, before you post, read more about pantheism and not just what an atheist says about it in some book or what Wikipedia sys about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
This is very amusing.

You post a quote from Wikipedia as the basis for your claim, then you object to the fact that I'm basing my ideas on what it says in Wikipedia.

I do have to wonder what I'll hear from you next.
To which he defensively counters...

Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
I used wikipedia because it is one of the few sites that atheists will accept. If I had quoted say a pantheist group, a college, some book, or alt. website you would have most likely claimed that it wasn't a reliable source.

Do yourself a favor and check out some other pantheism material. I have studied religion for the past 10 years, I have found that the best and only way to get reliable info about a religion is to talk to members or go to a church, meeting house, or event.

A book about religion written by an atheist isn't going to be as accurate as a religious person writing that same book.
Of course, we're usually plagued here on C-D with info from Christian websites by know-nothing, scientifically illiterate apologists who willfully and gleefully counter all the technically established facts up to this point in time (like evolution, geology, astronomy, etc.), with absolute mis-information.

We all know the Wiki has some problems from time to time, but in general, given it's overall adjudication process, it ends up being a far better source of information than some fabricated-info denialist Christian site. To try to tag it to badly informed atheists is a real stretch, and a significant demonstration to us all of frantic Christian desperation.

As well, I've tried, time and again, to provide links to peer-reviewed accredited scientific journals, but they remain unread or un-acknowleged by "the fright fringe".

Given the need to keep the words, phrases and concepts understandable by the technically challenged or scientifically unwilling, it's understandable that we must use Wiki to get those concepts across. Also, for the unbelievers here, do note that Wiki always provides the journal or other scientific links in the bibliography at the end of the article.

Knock yourselves out!
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:11 AM
 
5,463 posts, read 5,795,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
I don't think you are reading any of the things I post or the links I provide. The word derives from the Greek (pan) meaning "all" and the Greek (theos) meaning "God"
Yes, and getting back to my question, what facts point towards everything being (a) god?
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:13 AM
 
5,463 posts, read 5,795,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
I used wikipedia because it is one of the few sites that atheists will accept.
Proof of this claim? Or can we just short cut to the post where you backtrack and apologize for generalizing atheists yet again.
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,940,723 times
Reputation: 441
Rifleman, I agree that some religious people offer non-verifiable materials as evidence. I know that most atheists would not accept anything that was not verifiable. As Wikipedia is the most acceptable form of verifiable material online I provided it. I have many other things I could offer but they are personal stories of the people who believe in various faiths.

I believe to fully understand a religion you must read it's materials, read books written by members, talk to members and even go to events/ceremonies.

I wouldn't ask a Christian about being an atheist as I would hope you wouldn't take the word of an non-christian if asking about Christianity.

KCfromNC, that is not what was asked. What was asked was a religion based on fact. As Monist physicality Panthers only believe in the physical and call the universe "god" to simply point to its vastness and how amazing it is.

Tell me of any other non-bias site that you would accept?
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