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Old 10-05-2011, 11:23 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,241,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
Faith is believing in something without asking for anything in return. It's another term for trust. Have you ever said to someone that you have faith in them? How about you trust them? No difference. When it comes to religion, they are simply saying they trust their (belief) won't let them down.
Wrong. The definition of faith and of trust are completely different. When I trust someone it's because there is a track record of them being reliable in matters of trust. If they break that trust, then I don't trust them anymore. See how that's logical?

Quote:
Having faith is not living in ignorance and fear.
Yes, it is. It's deliberate ignorance, because you don't look for answers, you have "faith" that you already know them all and that your god won't let anything happen to you without a reason. That's ludicrous. This kind of thinking drives people to be content with their lives and refuse to change things because if everything that happens is god's will, then why is there any point in trying your hardest?

Faith is fear. Those who believe in an afterlife and a deity fear that they won't make it to the afterlife that they want. Maybe they'll go to the "bad" afterlife. Maybe they won't get their 72 virgins. Maybe they'll burn in hell forever. Growing up in such a faith-based environment, my earliest and most frequent memories are of abject fear, created by the faith of my parents.

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How does faith have anything to do with children starving?
Faith and religion have caused billions of deaths through ignorance. The Catholic church said that condoms cause AIDS and that people shouldn't use them. Massive deaths and children orphaned as a result. Faith means inaction. Faith means ignorance. Faith means complacency and no motivation to question what you're told.

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Most churches and religious people donate food, time, and money to help fight hunger. Can't say the same for the average Joe Schmo out there. Religions encourage people to help.
Wrong. Atheists and unbelievers donate massive amounts to charity too. In many respects, they far outstrip their faith-based counterparts. Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. Go take a look at Kiva.org and see who the top community group happens to be. Yep, atheists, by almost twice as much as the next-largest group...christians.

Which is interesting since you'd think that the donation percentages would rather mimic the population percentages. There are a lot more christians than atheists, and yet atheists are massively outstripping them. Not only that, but since the statistical sampling on Kiva is so large, it's a good indicator that it's accurate. That's not the only example, either. Some of the biggest philanthropists in the world are...yeah, atheists.

Faith is obviously NOT required to be a charitable person, which would imply that even if someone is religious, their donation to charity is unrelated to faith.

Quote:
Religions also help fight oppression. Sadly there are religions that still oppress people and they are the ones getting the spot light. STOP TAKING THE ACTIONS OF A FEW AS THE MESSAGE OF ALL.
Wrong. Name any "oppression" you think a particular religion is fighting, and it's bloody likely I can name you one (or more) that they're supporting.

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Faith means believing or having trust in something you hold dear.
No, that's having confidence or reasonable expectations in something that you have experienced previously. Nobody has "faith" that the sun will rise tomorrow. We have the reasonable expectation that it will based on everything we know about our solar system, our sun, our galaxy, and our planet.

Quote:
One of my favorite quotes is from Firefly when Shepard say, "I don't care what you believe in, just believe in it." Belief or faith gives people hope, it gives them courage, a drive to move forward. How is this a bad thing?
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. -- Ben Franklin

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. -- Richard Dawkins

To choose dogma and faith over doubt and experience is to throw out the ripening vintage and to reach greedily for the Kool-aid. -- Christopher Hitchens

Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Friedrich Nietzsche

Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile. — Kurt Vonnegut

The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. — Ferdinand Magellan

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Earth
1,107 posts, read 1,830,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
(snip}
Atheists and unbelievers donate massive amounts to charity too. In many respects, they far outstrip their faith-based counterparts. Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. Go take a look at Kiva.org and see who the top community group happens to be. Yep, atheists, by almost twice as much as the next-largest group...christians.

Which is interesting since you'd think that the donation percentages would rather mimic the population percentages. There are a lot more christians than atheists, and yet atheists are massively outstripping them. Not only that, but since the statistical sampling on Kiva is so large, it's a good indicator that it's accurate. That's not the only example, either. Some of the biggest philanthropists in the world are...yeah, atheists.

Faith is obviously NOT required to be a charitable person, which would imply that even if someone is religious, their donation to charity is unrelated to faith.
Lol, that’s great, on page two they credit the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Kiva - Loans that change lives
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Old 10-05-2011, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,942,223 times
Reputation: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
Wrong. The definition of faith and of trust are completely different. When I trust someone it's because there is a track record of them being reliable in matters of trust. If they break that trust, then I don't trust them anymore. See how that's logical?
trust
reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, etc., of a person or thing; confidence.


faithconfidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

Yup, look like the same thing for me... and guess what? This is the best part... in a thesaurus is says:Main Entry: trust  [truhst] Show IPA
Part of Speech: noun Definition: belief in something as true, trustworthy Synonyms: assurance, certainty, certitude, confidence, conviction, credence, credit, dependence, entrustment, expectation, faith, gospel truth, hope, positiveness, reliance, stock, store, sureness Antonyms: disbelief, distrust, mistrust

Quote:
Yes, it is. It's deliberate ignorance, because you don't look for answers, you have "faith" that you already know them all and that your god won't let anything happen to you without a reason. That's ludicrous. This kind of thinking drives people to be content with their lives and refuse to change things because if everything that happens is god's will, then why is there any point in trying your hardest?
I don't know how to snowboard, but I have faith or trust in myself enough to allow someone to show me how. According to Christians, God's will is free will, so you still have to try your best. You really don't know your dogma do you? Did you know that nature wont allow anything to happen to you without a reason? Get sick, you came in contact with something that caused it, this is what science calls cause and effect. Everything has a reason. Even if that reason is accidental, A+B+C+YOU=Effect. It happened, now get over it and move on.


Quote:
Faith is fear. Those who believe in an afterlife and a deity fear that they won't make it to the afterlife that they want. Maybe they'll go to the "bad" afterlife. Maybe they won't get their 72 virgins. Maybe they'll burn in hell forever. Growing up in such a faith-based environment, my earliest and most frequent memories are of abject fear, created by the faith of my parents.
Again, what dogma are you reading? I don't know many Christians that fear death. Most believe they are going to heaven. It is more logical to think that atheists are the ones who are afraid of death. Not having an afterlife means not having to answer for your deeds. This shows a fear of pleasing a higher power. yes, some (few) churches use fear based teachings, these churches are dying off. Most other religions don't use fear mongering. Also, it is your parents job to make you obey them, fear is an effective tool, some churches of ol' helped do that. Obey your parents or suffer Gods Wrath...muahhahaha!!

I have faith in many things and fear nothing. I don't fear dying, I welcome it when it is time. I have a firm belief that life is as long as it is intended to be and that it isn't too short.

Quote:
Faith and religion have caused billions of deaths through ignorance. The Catholic church said that condoms cause AIDS and that people shouldn't use them. Massive deaths and children orphaned as a result. Faith means inaction. Faith means ignorance. Faith means complacency and no motivation to question what you're told.
Again, wrong. The religion didn't say that, the religious leaders did. They used it and abused it. Take away the people equation and most religions are beautiful. And the church didn't cause this, people did this. Another great example of the ol' fear mongering trick used by older churches. It is becoming a thing of the past.

Wrong. Atheists and unbelievers donate massive amounts to charity too. In many respects, they far outstrip their faith-based counterparts. Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. Go take a look at Kiva.org and see who the top community group happens to be. Yep, atheists, by almost twice as much as the next-largest group...christians.

I couldn't find that info on the site. And if you consider that those celebs have more money then the average joe, yes. I never said atheist didn't donate. Btw, KIVA is just one program. Where I live all the food banks and shelters are religious based. I don't see many atheist food banks or shelters.

Quote:
Which is interesting since you'd think that the donation percentages would rather mimic the population percentages. There are a lot more christians than atheists, and yet atheists are massively outstripping them. Not only that, but since the statistical sampling on Kiva is so large, it's a good indicator that it's accurate. That's not the only example, either. Some of the biggest philanthropists in the world are...yeah, atheists.
I need numbers and evidence to prove this. Otherwise I believe it is another atheist on a fear rant on Christians.
Quote:
Faith is obviously NOT required to be a charitable person, which would imply that even if someone is religious, their donation to charity is unrelated to faith.
Never said it was. But you are the one who said they allow people to starve and suffer. It appears you know little about the religions you claim do this.

Quote:
Wrong. Name any "oppression" you think a particular religion is fighting, and it's bloody likely I can name you one (or more) that they're supporting.
Why don't you tell me every church and the oppression they are supporting?

Quote:
No, that's having confidence or reasonable expectations in something that you have experienced previously. Nobody has "faith" that the sun will rise tomorrow. We have the reasonable expectation that it will based on everything we know about our solar system, our sun, our galaxy, and our planet.
I have faith that I will wake up tomorrow. How about that? I have faith that sometime today I will eat. I have faith that tomorrow I will have a job.
Quote:
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. -- Ben Franklin
Benjamin Franklin and Mark Twain, and Ralph Waldo Emerson are the most misquoted people of all time. I rather like this one by Franklin - "The worst wheel of a cart makes the most noise." I like this one too, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Quote:
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. -- Richard Dawkins
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” - Oscar Wild. Give a man hope and he can rise up from almost any situation.

Quote:
Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Friedrich Nietzsche
Faith means not having to know everything. Mans quest for knowledge will be his undoing. For some reason we think we must understand everything there is to know. Maybe there are just some things we cannot ever know and never will know.

Quote:
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal
Politics? Money? Greed? Land? Sex?

Thank you for using some of the most commonly used atheist quotes.
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Old 10-05-2011, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,942,223 times
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Found the Kiva amounts donated. Umm atheist have few groups with 5,380,175. Add up all religions and their totals. What do you get?
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Old 10-05-2011, 12:56 PM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,241,925 times
Reputation: 3933
Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post


faithconfidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

Yup, look like the same thing for me...
Oh really? You're using 'faith' in relation to religious beliefs, where it specifically means belief that is not based on proof.

You're doing the same thing that christians typically do when they scoff that something is "just a theory". You're taking a word and selectively choosing only one of its definitions -- only the one that you think promotes your opinion -- but not the definition that relates to the topic under discussion.

Good job.
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Old 10-05-2011, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,942,223 times
Reputation: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
Oh really? You're using 'faith' in relation to religious beliefs, where it specifically means belief that is not based on proof.

You're doing the same thing that christians typically do when they scoff that something is "just a theory". You're taking a word and selectively choosing only one of its definitions -- only the one that you think promotes your opinion -- but not the definition that relates to the topic under discussion.

Good job.
We are talking about faith and trust. You said they weren't the same thing. I was simply showing they are the same thing. Even in regard to religion. Confidence, faith, trust, hope, belief... they are all the same thing and can be used almost interchangeably. These words are not owned by religion, they do not only apply to religion. Their meanings remain the same weather a religious person uses them or an non-religious person does.
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Old 10-05-2011, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
12,312 posts, read 8,200,039 times
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For me I think the biggest problem with religion at least Christianty which seems to be what we're talking about here. Is that people tend to have less faith in doing things for themselves & tend to let thier God to things for them. They tend to believe that without God they can't do for themselves. For some reason or another they also tend to believe that they derserve a better place because they believe that life it so hard that they should get some type of reward for it. I've never understood these things.
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Old 10-05-2011, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,099 posts, read 10,681,582 times
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Asking a question about the "downside" of faith implies that there is an upside.

This is an entirely unjustified assumption. Believing in a factual proposition (such as the existence of god) without sufficient evidence and logic to support it is abandoning logic and rationality. To do this exposes you to poor decision making and to exploitation by those who are willing to play on people's ignorance.
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Old 10-05-2011, 02:19 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,088 posts, read 12,739,241 times
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The downside of faith?

I assume you mean other than assuming mythology to be true.
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Old 10-05-2011, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Walt Disney World
15,320 posts, read 8,300,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
Faith is always a bad thing. It promotes and celebrates ignorance and complacency in people. Complacency to live in ignorance and fear. Complacency about other people being oppressed. Complacency about children starving to death.
Ridiculous! Christians worldwide do much to help the oppressed/hungry. *Sometimes, I think you just say stupid things like this to get a rise out of people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
Faith means believing in something for which there is absolutely no evidence, and taking pride in the fact that you're being deliberately ignorant.
So, no one could possibly have had a different experience than your's?
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