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Old 10-05-2011, 03:16 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
15,208 posts, read 8,250,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
Wrong. The definition of faith and of trust are completely different. When I trust someone it's because there is a track record of them being reliable in matters of trust. If they break that trust, then I don't trust them anymore. See how that's logical?


Faith is not blind.
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Old 10-05-2011, 03:46 PM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,221,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post

So, no one could possibly have had a different experience than your's?
Sure. I've told you many times, feel free to show me logical evidence of your experience and I'll take a look at it. Thing is, you never manage to come up with any evidence.
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Old 10-05-2011, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,934,929 times
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You atheists and non-theists all think that having faith means a person is not logical. Tell me, when the system gives up on people like criminals, drug addicts, and the poor and they find hope and are "saved" be a religious path. How is this bad? I know many people who would be dead, in jail, or homeless if they hadn't found some form or religion. You tell them it's illogical.

You all assume that belief in a god or things metaphysical means your an idiot that doesn't apply logic or reason to everyday life. This simply isn't true. You blame religion for wars and death yet neglect to blame the individuals responsible.

I fail to see where having hope for something more in this life where most people could care less about one single person is a bad thing. I fail to see how a holiday that brings joy to millions of children each year and uniting families is a bad thing. I fail to see how believing is such things is physically unhealthy. Sure people do stupid things in the name of religion. But people do stupid things without religion everyday and they certainly out number the amount of people who do them in the name of religion. I fail to see how the bad deeds of the past and the few outdoes the amount of good religion does each and every day.

How's that for logic? No evidence, so what! If believing in pink unicorns gives me hope at the end of the day or saves me from doing that line of cocaine, or robbing a gas station when everything else has failed because there is no equivalent. What do you care?

I under stand not teaching creationism, keeping laws free of religious dogma. There is logic in religion, if you fail to see it, you have your own issues to work on. Until we start caring about people regardless of their past and forgiving them there will be a need for religion. But that just doesn't happen. Commit a crime and the world casts you aside forever. Religion is one of the few things they have. Same goes for drug addicts. Society accepts drugs as a part of life. Just look how we glamorize it and have double standards for certain groups.

How's that for logic and reason?
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Old 10-05-2011, 05:59 PM
 
2,319 posts, read 3,970,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
You atheists and non-theists all think that having faith means a person is not logical. Tell me, when the system gives up on people like criminals, drug addicts, and the poor and they find hope and are "saved" be a religious path. How is this bad? I know many people who would be dead, in jail, or homeless if they hadn't found some form or religion. You tell them it's illogical.

You all assume that belief in a god or things metaphysical means your an idiot that doesn't apply logic or reason to everyday life. This simply isn't true. You blame religion for wars and death yet neglect to blame the individuals responsible.

I fail to see where having hope for something more in this life where most people could care less about one single person is a bad thing. I fail to see how a holiday that brings joy to millions of children each year and uniting families is a bad thing. I fail to see how believing is such things is physically unhealthy. Sure people do stupid things in the name of religion. But people do stupid things without religion everyday and they certainly out number the amount of people who do them in the name of religion. I fail to see how the bad deeds of the past and the few outdoes the amount of good religion does each and every day.

How's that for logic? No evidence, so what! If believing in pink unicorns gives me hope at the end of the day or saves me from doing that line of cocaine, or robbing a gas station when everything else has failed because there is no equivalent. What do you care?

I under stand not teaching creationism, keeping laws free of religious dogma. There is logic in religion, if you fail to see it, you have your own issues to work on. Until we start caring about people regardless of their past and forgiving them there will be a need for religion. But that just doesn't happen. Commit a crime and the world casts you aside forever. Religion is one of the few things they have. Same goes for drug addicts. Society accepts drugs as a part of life. Just look how we glamorize it and have double standards for certain groups.

How's that for logic and reason?
You'll notice the red, bold, and underlined words in your post. Those words made it almost impossible for me to (1) read your post (2) with an open mind and (3) take you seriously. Atheists and non-theists, which include Buddhists and technically Scientologists, Jains, and some varieties of Hindus and Taos - that's a large group. We ALL think and believe the same thing? I don't think so.

That was number one. Number two: I keep reading your posts about individuals being responsible for bad things, not religion. Well, sure. I don't think that anyone is saying that an ideology or a philosophy or a religion materialize into a physical form and commit a crime or a vile act. Nor did an ideology or a philosophy or a religion materialize and do a good deed. Everyone knows this. Of course, it's the individual that commits any act - good or ill (it's society that interprets the act, but that's another matter).

You wrote above "I fail to see how the bad deeds of the past and the few outdoes the amount of good religion does each and every day." I personally couldn't disagree with you more. The good done in the name of religion does not, in my mind, outweigh the tribal wars of the O.T., the Crusades, the Buddhist-Muslim-Hindu wars, much of the Inquisitions, the initial genocide of American Indians, the witch hunts, the Holocaust, the Kurdish genocide by Saddam, the numerous wars in Africa, the attacks in September 2001, and who-knows-how-many-other atrocities. Most anti-theists, I would wager, agree, and that's why we care.
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,934,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peppermint View Post
You'll notice the red, bold, and underlined words in your post. Those words made it almost impossible for me to (1) read your post (2) with an open mind and (3) take you seriously. Atheists and non-theists, which include Buddhists and technically Scientologists, Jains, and some varieties of Hindus and Taos - that's a large group. We ALL think and believe the same thing? I don't think so.

That was number one. Number two: I keep reading your posts about individuals being responsible for bad things, not religion. Well, sure. I don't think that anyone is saying that an ideology or a philosophy or a religion materialize into a physical form and commit a crime or a vile act. Nor did an ideology or a philosophy or a religion materialize and do a good deed. Everyone knows this. Of course, it's the individual that commits any act - good or ill (it's society that interprets the act, but that's another matter).

You wrote above "I fail to see how the bad deeds of the past and the few outdoes the amount of good religion does each and every day." I personally couldn't disagree with you more. The good done in the name of religion does not, in my mind, outweigh the tribal wars of the O.T., the Crusades, the Buddhist-Muslim-Hindu wars, much of the Inquisitions, the initial genocide of American Indians, the witch hunts, the Holocaust, the Kurdish genocide by Saddam, the numerous wars in Africa, the attacks in September 2001, and who-knows-how-many-other atrocities. Most anti-theists, I would wager, agree, and that's why we care.
You care about things that are in the past or done by a political power that really has nothing to do with religion. Yes, the tribal wars, crusades and the like are terrible and nobody is denying this. Nobody is trying to cover this up. But the priests, soldiers, and lower class were doing what they were told. If you didn't you would be killed. What kind of a choice is that. We would all like to say we would choose death than participate, however that is a bold claim that probably wouldn't be kept. However, I believe that the good does out-weigh the bad in this case. Take all the religions and put a percent of how many do bad or harmful things, it would probably come out to about 2%. Sadly the "logical" human mind looks for the bad and ignored the good.

The reason I say all, is because I am using a blanket term. All atheists are against some form or religion. Either they find all religion bad and illogical or they find theists dumb and illogical. Also, I want to show how a blanket term doesn't work in a discussion like this. When someone posts all religions are bad and evil, or harmful, etc, they do this without thought. They claim to be using logic but in reality they aren't. Logical people can separate the individual doing bad things from the religion or group.

In reality, most atheist, anti-theists, theists, religious, and spiritual people are good people. One thing that I have noticed as a new religious movement comes onto the sceen in a bigger force, is that is points out the flaws of the other religions, it judges, blames, and eventually it leads to war. Will the atheist-theist debate go that far? Only time will tell, and history tells us it will. Does anyone want this to happen? You bet, why? Because there is money, land, political power and more to be gained. This is sad, but it is human nature. I think that is atheist, theists, religious and spiritual people could form a group and unite their differences that we could progress in a direction mankind never has. You would think in the thousands of years we have been around we would have done this already.
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:45 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 2,146,062 times
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Default The problem with religion...

I whole-heartedly agree with raison_d'etre that wars and atrocities can be laid at the feet of people who have positions of power in human society. As an atheist, I certainly can't blame god, now can I?

The problem I have with religion is that is a very powerful tool that allows a very small minority to manipulate and abuse everyone else. One example is the crusades. Sure they were wars started to enrich the pope and a small portion of European nobility. But the problem is that the majority of the people fighting and dying were not doing it for someone else's financial gain, or because they were facing execution if they didn't go. They did it because God wanted them to. Because a religion told them that the pope could not be wrong, and he said that, "God wills it".

Because of religion, otherwise rational people who were reputed to be honest frugal and neighborly, 24 innocent people died in Salem. It was not religion that made the false allegations, but it was religion that made it possible for an entire town to give credence to unprovable and ridiculous allegations.

Because of religion, we in the United States have a significant portion of our population intent of denying a small segment of the population the right to enjoy the legal benefits of marriage with their partner of choice. Before it was about homosexuality, it was about interracial marriages, both opposed by otherwise good and decent people, who view their bigotry as sanctioned, in fact commanded by God.

In all these cases, individual people are responsible for the abuses, but religion is a lever that is capable of magnifying an individual's intolerance, greed, or hatred by putting a diety's seal of approval on these actions. Even today, most Evangelical Fundamentalists will argue in defense of genocide, rape, and infanticide if God said to do it. For evidence of that look at discussions about the nature of God in light of these actions he purportedly commanded in the Old Testament.

While I am an atheist, I am not against all religion. I don't have a real issue with Deists, or Unitarian Universalists, as their doctrine or dogma does not allow it to be used in these ways. Most religions, however have at their core an antagonistic, divisive ideology. As long as each claims to be the only way to the truth, demanding that its revelations must be accepted as fact without verification, there will not be anything more than an uneasy truce between ideologies.

NoCapo

Last edited by NoCapo; 10-05-2011 at 08:50 PM.. Reason: Lots of grammer errors.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:05 PM
 
2,319 posts, read 3,970,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
You care about things that are in the past or done by a political power that really has nothing to do with religion. Yes, the tribal wars, crusades and the like are terrible and nobody is denying this. Nobody is trying to cover this up. But the priests, soldiers, and lower class were doing what they were told. If you didn't you would be killed. What kind of a choice is that.
Things that are in the past? Sorry, many things are going on in the present. So the first portion of your statement is false. In your second portion, you seem to be saying that whenever religion is paired with another factor like politics then the other factor is obviously the problem not religion. It's a failure to recognize the enormous role religion plays in people's lives. For example, most Christians I know vote Republican because Republicans tend to be anti-abortion, anti-stem cell research, and some of the radical conservatives are also anti-Roe v. Wade and pro-prayer in school. Those are 100% religiously motivated. God said "Thou shalt not kill" and prayer is a no brainer. They aren't Christians because they are Republicans; they are Republicans because they are Christians. We can take any example you like and apply the same logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
We would all like to say we would choose death than participate, however that is a bold claim that probably wouldn't be kept. However, I believe that the good does out-weigh the bad in this case. Take all the religions and put a percent of how many do bad or harmful things, it would probably come out to about 2%. Sadly the "logical" human mind looks for the bad and ignored the good.
We will have to agree to disagree on the bold portion above. I'd love to see evidence that supports the 2% value because I'd stake my house that it is incorrect.
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:06 PM
 
6,249 posts, read 9,667,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Faith is not blind.
Definition of the word faith...

-firm belief in something for which there is no proof
-belief and trust in and loyalty to God
-something that is believed especially with strong conviction
Faith - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

How is faith not blind when there isn't any proof/evidence present?
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,506 posts, read 1,934,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peppermint View Post
Things that are in the past? Sorry, many things are going on in the present. So the first portion of your statement is false. In your second portion, you seem to be saying that whenever religion is paired with another factor like politics then the other factor is obviously the problem not religion. It's a failure to recognize the enormous role religion plays in people's lives. For example, most Christians I know vote Republican because Republicans tend to be anti-abortion, anti-stem cell research, and some of the radical conservatives are also anti-Roe v. Wade and pro-prayer in school. Those are 100% religiously motivated. God said "Thou shalt not kill" and prayer is a no brainer. They aren't Christians because they are Republicans; they are Republicans because they are Christians. We can take any example you like and apply the same logic.
I do see where you are coming from. And I mostly agree with you. However, I believe that if you take away the Christine factor, these people wouldn't change much. People tend to form their own beliefs when it comes to religion. Everyone is different. I once heard a pastor say,

"even though we are all from the same religion, I don't care what you believe when it comes to the bible, God, and other christian beliefs. Each one of us form our religious beliefs around our lifestyle and that makes us all very different when it comes to how we understand things."

I have never heard a truer statement in a church.

Quote:
We will have to agree to disagree on the bold portion above. I'd love to see evidence that supports the 2% value because I'd stake my house that it is incorrect.
If you take every religion the exists today and that did in the past, that number would be in the thousands. Christians and Muslims make up a very small portion of that. Remember, both religions are fairly new and young. Aspect of them change over time and will continue to do so. The christians of today are very different than those just 50 years ago. Even more so as you go back. You can't really claim the Christianity of today as the same one hundreds of years ago. The number I gave was just a guess. It could be higher or even lower.

All I am saying is don't judge the young by their fathers or grandfathers. It's not fair and rather illogical..
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:51 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
6,930 posts, read 4,309,181 times
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So I suppose the upside of personal faith is that it makes us feel good and we could get lucky, while the downside is that it can make us mistreat others or we could get unlucky.
everyone agrees?
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