Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
hiker45, I have been reading your posts in the Judaism forum and you seem too reasonable and tolerant to call yourself an Atheist. Atheists are generally immoral God-hating intolerant liberal fundamentalists. Why would you want to classify yourself with such people? You should call yourself a non-theist instead. As wikipedia explains, the word "non-theist" was introduced by George Holyoake in 1852 because:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. [Charles] Southwell has taken an objection to the term Atheism. We are glad he has. We have disused it a long time [...]. We disuse it, because Atheist is a worn-out word. Both the ancients and the moderns have understood by it one without God, and also without morality. Thus the term connotes more than any well-informed and earnest person accepting it ever included in it; that is, the word carries with it associations of immorality, which have been repudiated by the Atheist as seriously as by the Christian. Non-theism is a term less open to the same misunderstanding, as it implies the simple non-acceptance of the Theist's explanation of the origin and government of the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nontheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now I would like to answer your questions in your original post. I define God as Natural Law, namely all laws of science, known and unknown. So when I say that I believe in God, I am just saying that I believe in science. But there is a distinct benefit to personifying natural law. This is so that God can serve as the virtual alpha-male of my tribe. Humans are primates that organize themselves into groups led by an alpha-male. But this structure is risky because the alpha-male can be a tyrant. The solution is to use a virtual alpha-male, namely God. This is why all egalitarian and democratic societies formed where there was a religion with a strong alpha-male god like Zeus or Yahweh. Without such a god, the vacuum will be filled by a man.
The reason I want to join an organized religion is because, as a human, I am tribal and I would like to belong to a tribe. And I hate modern culture, so this does not fulfill my need.
hiker45, I have been reading your posts in the Judaism forum and you seem too reasonable and tolerant to call yourself an Atheist. Atheists are generally immoral God-hating intolerant liberal fundamentalists. ....
The solution is to use a virtual alpha-male, namely God. This is why all egalitarian and democratic societies formed where there was a religion with a strong alpha-male god like Zeus or Yahweh. Without such a god, the vacuum will be filled by a man.
But if a society has an alpha-male god figure, then people want to know what this god wants them to do. Since this make-believe god doesn't say much, different people will put forth their ideas and you know what this leads to ... WAR.
At least if a society has a human tyrant, everyone knows what the tyrant wants, and that helps to keep the peace.
I don't see how having a god increases the likelihood of war. I would say that there isn't much difference. Those who seek power may cause civil war, whether in the name of different interpretations of a god or in their own name. The same applies to wars on neighboring countries. And when a leader takes power, he lets people know what we wants, whether in a god's name or his own. The main effect on a leader of having a god is that the leader is constrained to do things that appear consistent with the general understanding of that god's will.
The main effect on a leader of having a god is that the leader is constrained to do things that appear consistent with the general understanding of that god's will.
Or he reinterprets or reinvents the will of that god to coincide with his own. It isn't so much that a god belief changes the desire for power in the leaders, it just provides a tool, leverage if you will, to make the masses fall in line and not object.
That is what makes it dangerous. It doesn't constrain the behavior of the powerful, it rationalizes and legitimatizes it. It is not a tool to ensure good behavior, but compliance.
Or he reinterprets or reinvents the will of that god to coincide with his own. It isn't so much that a god belief changes the desire for power in the leaders, it just provides a tool, leverage if you will, to make the masses fall in line and not object.
That is what makes it dangerous. It doesn't constrain the behavior of the powerful, it rationalizes and legitimatizes it. It is not a tool to ensure good behavior, but compliance.
People seem to be capable of rationalizing anything, with or without gods, so I don't think that is relevant. And it is true that leaders can twist the will of God, Jushua being a prime example. Jushua was homicidal maniac, basically an Israelite Hitler, who Jews still admire. But on the flip side, the prophets of the Bible who pled for morality would not have been possible without a god to appeal to. I believe that the reason that China has always been a dictatorship is because China lacked gods that moral men could use to appeal to for decency and fairness.
People seem to be capable of rationalizing anything, with or without gods, so I don't think that is relevant. And it is true that leaders can twist the will of God, Jushua being a prime example. Jushua was homicidal maniac, basically an Israelite Hitler, who Jews still admire. But on the flip side, the prophets of the Bible who pled for morality would not have been possible without a god to appeal to.
So we have the prophets appeals to morality, which according to the Bible itself invariably failed as the Jewish people ignored the prophets and kept on doing as they please. Oh sure, there are minor renewals of the national faith, but even today there are still the same calls for the same return to god's way. Obviously the calls of the prophets have not produced a permanent result in over 2500 years.
Meanwhile, on the other hand we have genocide and the entire destruction of people groups. I am not sure futile calls to repentance outweigh that...
Ultimately though, I think the real problem lie elsewhere. The problem is that religion ultimately is not grounded in observable reality. At its most basic level it is asking its followers to suspend their critical faculties and believe something for which there is no evidence. As a tool for control it beats politics, it beats science, it beats medicine, it beats pretty much everything else, because it asks the participant to voluntarily suspend their critical faculties. Once you establish that you need no facts, no evidence, merely holy writ or the word of a leader, you can pretty much write your ticket. Which is what we see over and over in history. As Voltaire said,"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Quote:
Originally Posted by fschmidt
I believe that the reason that China has always been a dictatorship is because China lacked gods that moral men could use to appeal to for decency and fairness.
I think you have made far too sweeping of a generalization here. I would argue that China has not always been a dictatorship anymore than any monarchy. Even now, I would hesitate to call it a dictatorship. Dictatorship is a pretty fuzzy term. An oligarchy might be a better description.
Regardless, In what ways is China worse off that say, India, where we have more gods than I can number? Contrast that to Japan, which also is pretty godless. There doesn't seem to me to be a correlation between a historic or cultural belief in a personal deity and prosperity or decency and fairness.
So we have the prophets appeals to morality, which according to the Bible itself invariably failed as the Jewish people ignored the prophets and kept on doing as they please. Oh sure, there are minor renewals of the national faith, but even today there are still the same calls for the same return to god's way. Obviously the calls of the prophets have not produced a permanent result in over 2500 years.
Western civilization is the result of the prophets. Protestants made frequent moral appeals to the prophets as they encouraged the morality that made Western civilization possible.
Quote:
Ultimately though, I think the real problem lie elsewhere. The problem is that religion ultimately is not grounded in observable reality. At its most basic level it is asking its followers to suspend their critical faculties and believe something for which there is no evidence. As a tool for control it beats politics, it beats science, it beats medicine, it beats pretty much everything else, because it asks the participant to voluntarily suspend their critical faculties. Once you establish that you need no facts, no evidence, merely holy writ or the word of a leader, you can pretty much write your ticket. Which is what we see over and over in history. As Voltaire said,"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Nothing is less grounded in reality than secular liberalism which ignores history and primate behavior. The basic message of the Old Testament is very much grounded in reality, and this message is that when a culture loses respect for the values associated with its god(s), it becomes corrupt and falls.
Quote:
I think you have made far too sweeping of a generalization here. I would argue that China has not always been a dictatorship anymore than any monarchy. Even now, I would hesitate to call it a dictatorship. Dictatorship is a pretty fuzzy term. An oligarchy might be a better description.
Regardless, In what ways is China worse off that say, India, where we have more gods than I can number? Contrast that to Japan, which also is pretty godless. There doesn't seem to me to be a correlation between a historic or cultural belief in a personal deity and prosperity or decency and fairness.
The Chinese religions were basically secular, which is why they never had anything approaching democracy and never had much concept of equality. Not all religions work, and obviously Hinduism doesn't, but I don't know enough about Hinduism to know why. The Japanese Shinto religion is actually quite a good religion, but in any case, Japan had democracy imposed on it rather than choosing it for themselves.
But if a society has an alpha-male god figure, then people want to know what this god wants them to do. Since this make-believe god doesn't say much, different people will put forth their ideas and you know what this leads to ... WAR.
At least if a society has a human tyrant, everyone knows what the tyrant wants, and that helps to keep the peace.
What if the GOD wants peace?
I love how so many people claim that Christianity was THE REASON the crusaders killed millions and that Islam was THE REASON Bin Laden killed people...but was Buddhism the reason Ashoka put down his sword and aided the weak and ruled through kindness? "well...he would have done that anyway!"
Very little bad as been done BECAUSE of religion. It has been used as an excuse time and time again, but if that excuse wasn't available they would find some other one. Stalin used Marxism as an excuse to massacre millions, for example.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
