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Old 10-07-2011, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post

Anyways back on topic... Chango, you are mostly correct. I often wonder what would the world be like if say the Egyptian or mayan cultures had survived and were the norm instead, what would the world be like?
Well raison, you'd be praying to the naked star-bellied goddess instead of a magic Jewish carpenter or laying awake at night in fear of ending up in Xibalba.

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Old 10-07-2011, 07:46 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
Yes, some do, but I get the feeling that there can be more damage done by people who cannot self regulate as members of some religions as opposed to others.

Is our reason for being purely self-serving or do we have a shared responsibility for the society/civilization that we are a part of?

Just as there are all levels of intelligence and various abilities in individuals of our civilization, so there may be all levels of moral development. Is not it best to create systems to address and develop a sense of moral responsibility as well as systems to develop, let's say, intelligence?

Some may not require it. Some might study at home and arrive at adulthood with a college educational equivalent, but most will not.

Just so, it is good, I think, for there to be some channel in society that teaches good and evil and that there are ethical consequences to our actions and that all of life is not about 'me' and my desired ends.

I am not too enthralled with the mythology of conventional religion, but I do think it gets people to consider the moral implications of their actions. What else in society actually serves that purpose?
For the most part, I cannot disagree with your statements. The only one that I truly challenge is the system formed by religion to teach "morals". Each system can and does teach something different, pushing their own point of view.

I say expose people to various forms of knowledge, to think for themselves and not what to think. Then you start to have an advancement in the species. Not through religion.
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Old 10-08-2011, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Nanaimo, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
I know that some say if you harm others it comes back to you, but they also have evolved ways around this
No matter the religion or belief system one follows, there are always people that find ways to 'game the system'.

I've even noticed a lot of it in Christianity -- not that it's exclusive to the Christian faith (I don't like painting entire religions in a bad light), but it's simply the most obvious comparison.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the King James version of the Bible was specifically comissioned so that he could 'game the system' and use 'Thou shalt not suffer a...' to justify witch-hunting as a theological issue. The original Hebrew version doesn't even mention witches; it speaks of poisoners, but since King James had a cause to promote....
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:46 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,251,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
wrong, too biased. All religions are just as "magical."
Although I think the OP is flawed your statement is incorrect and pretty obviously so. I would like to think I'd say that if I were atheist because being atheist shouldn't, necessarily or inevitably, mean one is ignorant on the humanities or philosophy or culture. (Although some atheists here have almost made me wonder on that.)

"Magic" is largely the idea the individual, or a small group, can manipulate nature or reality with certain occult practices or formulas. Or gives humans control over supernatural powers. In a way magic is like an alternate science or maybe more accurately like an alternate technology. In that it often imagines certain rules or formulas exist that allow you to get certain real-world outcomes.

Religion is more a system of devotion, meaning, virtues, traditions, community, and so forth. Many to most religions don't see the supernatural as something humans can manipulate and control for whatever end they wish. As I understand it Buddhism is explicitly against the idea humans can manipulate the supernatural that way. Christianity believes miracles are from God and doesn't believe humans can control God or force him to give a person an X-box or Mercedes or whatever. Of major religions certain forms of "folk Taoism" might be closest to "magical" as many Taoists do/did believe certain formulas, or even sexual positions, could bring immortality or super-strength or whatever. However even then some of the more "philosophical Taoism" groups aren't like that at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
And they all detail things out just as clearly.
Again no. Blanket generalizations like this are sloppy and ignorant. When a person says "all religions do X" what they're really saying is they've never looked into many, or any, religions with any kind of seriousness or depth.

My problem with the OP is making this a new/old issue. "Magic" is not something simply of "new religions." Some of the oldest, tribal, religions on Earth have a strong element of "magic." Voodoo is itself not really a "new religion", but is likely a descendant of older African religions mixed with Christianity.

Likewise "new religions" don't all believe in "magic." There are some "new religions" that don't even believe in the supernatural as such. So it's off-based to make this precisely a new/old issue.
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Old 10-08-2011, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
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This is a bit off topic but there are many Pagan's who don't do magick. They believe that it can upst the natural order of things. For many of us it's more science then anything else. It kind of works like prayer does with Christianty.
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:24 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Although I think the OP is flawed your statement is incorrect and pretty obviously so. I would like to think I'd say that if I were atheist because being atheist shouldn't, necessarily or inevitably, mean one is ignorant on the humanities or philosophy or culture. (Although some atheists here have almost made me wonder on that.)

"Magic" is largely the idea the individual, or a small group, can manipulate nature or reality with certain occult practices or formulas. Or gives humans control over supernatural powers. In a way magic is like an alternate science or maybe more accurately like an alternate technology. In that it often imagines certain rules or formulas exist that allow you to get certain real-world outcomes.

Religion is more a system of devotion, meaning, virtues, traditions, community, and so forth. Many to most religions don't see the supernatural as something humans can manipulate and control for whatever end they wish. As I understand it Buddhism is explicitly against the idea humans can manipulate the supernatural that way. Christianity believes miracles are from God and doesn't believe humans can control God or force him to give a person an X-box or Mercedes or whatever. Of major religions certain forms of "folk Taoism" might be closest to "magical" as many Taoists do/did believe certain formulas, or even sexual positions, could bring immortality or super-strength or whatever. However even then some of the more "philosophical Taoism" groups aren't like that at all.



Again no. Blanket generalizations like this are sloppy and ignorant. When a person says "all religions do X" what they're really saying is they've never looked into many, or any, religions with any kind of seriousness or depth.

My problem with the OP is making this a new/old issue. "Magic" is not something simply of "new religions." Some of the oldest, tribal, religions on Earth have a strong element of "magic." Voodoo is itself not really a "new religion", but is likely a descendant of older African religions mixed with Christianity.

Likewise "new religions" don't all believe in "magic." There are some "new religions" that don't even believe in the supernatural as such. So it's off-based to make this precisely a new/old issue.
I agree with your whole response, and being as I think I know A LOT about a lot of religions, I stick with my original post. that being that ALL blanket statement religions: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, Voodoo, etc. are just as magical and they detail things out in just as much coherent, mutually agreed upon, detail.
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
wrong, too biased. All religions are just as "magical." And they all detail things out just as clearly.
Mainstream religions do not train people to become their own priests and practice their own magical rituals to a specified end. THat's the distinction I was trying to make.
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob View Post
No matter the religion or belief system one follows, there are always people that find ways to 'game the system'.

I've even noticed a lot of it in Christianity -- not that it's exclusive to the Christian faith (I don't like painting entire religions in a bad light), but it's simply the most obvious comparison.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the King James version of the Bible was specifically comissioned so that he could 'game the system' and use 'Thou shalt not suffer a...' to justify witch-hunting as a theological issue. The original Hebrew version doesn't even mention witches; it speaks of poisoners, but since King James had a cause to promote....
WOW - I did not know.
This was a big argument of mine when I was a kid in Sunday School. I could not get my head around the difference in magic seeming to be who performed it, a witch or a believer.

I did not like the hypocrisy of it.

Thank you.
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Old 10-08-2011, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,411 posts, read 15,947,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post

My problem with the OP is making this a new/old issue. "Magic" is not something simply of "new religions." Some of the oldest, tribal, religions on Earth have a strong element of "magic." Voodoo is itself not really a "new religion", but is likely a descendant of older African religions mixed with Christianity.

Likewise "new religions" don't all believe in "magic." There are some "new religions" that don't even believe in the supernatural as such. So it's off-based to make this precisely a new/old issue.
I used new/old in trying to say in a little space that the new religions can also be thought of as the old religions, for they are. It was a way for the viewer to get an idea of contrast without labeling any one religion as to age.
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Old 10-08-2011, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,411 posts, read 15,947,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
So if a Voodoo priest writes a book titled: all there is to voodoo, the good, the bad, and a bunch of poetry to jilt your pathos, would that make voodoo an "organized" and "established" religion?

When you curse someone, you must first be exposed to the curse yourself, all religions know this.

Protection magic is used by ALL religions, Attack magic is ALSO used by all religions: "IN the NAME of God!"(let the demon suffer, be forced out, or let us win the war and slaughter many enemies")
When I see members of Congress profess to being voodoo adherents or wiccans I will be more likely to consider them establishment.

Most people do not equate attacking a demon with attacking your neighbor. I will put to you that most 'mainstream' memberships do not even believe in demons, nor magic.

War is a different story. No matter how evil the enemy, too many innocents get killed. There are times in which you must take a stand in life, but only after much soul searching for you will most likely be harming the innocent and once you start that ball rolling it is very hard to stop it.

Collectively, we have abstract ideas of good and evil, and those ideas are thought to serve the common good.

I think when a person is involved in the 'magical' (to my definition) religions, you may easily slip into the idea that anything that serves your purposes is good and anyone who disagrees with you is evil. It is easy to expand your own ego. It is also easy to perceive harm where none is intended. This is not good for the collective community.
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