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Old 10-08-2011, 08:46 PM
 
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Kings Ranger is dead on: Atheists need to stop embarassing themselves and grow up. Tolerate others for once - practice what you preach. And - before you think that applied directly to you: please don't.
Just to the extremely selfish ones who have nothing better than to act like legalistic, sue-happy Moderator cut: inappropriate with nothing better to do than force a minority viewpoint down the throats of a majority. Welcome to America. Now wait your turn. Private or public - most people don't mind such things and don't see it as America forcing a particular sect down their throat. After all - it was never intended (separation of C and S) to apply to Islam vs Christianity, or Buddhism vs Judaism. The Founding Fathers would never have imagined how this country has turned into a religious melting pot. Never.
They assumed that it would be a nation free of a particular Christian SECT.

It's to the point where little kids get in trouble at school for saying "Merry Christmas" to other students, because of whiny Atheists and Wiccans (lol... wiccans). OH NO! My civil rights as a satanist have been violated by a simple, polite holiday wish - a holiday that America has loved for generations! Happy HOLIDAYS, everyone. Bah. Humbug.

Last edited by june 7th; 10-09-2011 at 12:45 PM..
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Old 10-08-2011, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,593,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Kings Ranger is dead on: Atheists need to stop embarassing themselves and grow up. And - before you think that applied directly to you: please don't.
Just to the extremely selfish ones who have nothing better than to act like legalistic, sue-happy Moderator cut: orphaned with nothing better to do than force a minority viewpoint down the throats of a majority. Welcome to America. Now wait your turn. Private or public - most people don't mind such things and don't see it as America forcing a particular sect down their throat. After all - it was never intended (separation of C and S) to apply to Islam vs Christianity, or Buddhism vs Judaism. The Founding Fathers would never have imagined how this country has turned into a religious melting pot. Never.
They assumed that it would be a nation free of a particular Christian SECT.
The Founding Fathers would never have imagined how this country has turned into a religious melting pot.

You sure? There were already a number of Muslims and Jews in America at the time the "Founding Fathers" drafted the constitution.

Quote:
Hirschman and Yates analyzed naming practices, marriage patterns, business relationships and DNA testing revealing that a large number of early settlers were of Sephardic Jewish, Ashkenazic Jewish and Muslim (both North African and Ottoman) origin. This included settlers in Virginia (1587 Roanoke and 1589 Jamestown), Massachusetts (including settlers among the Pilgrims and Puritans), South Carolina (many of whose settlers originated in Barbados and bore Sephardic Jewish connections), New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland and Pennsylvania (where settlers had surnames such as Ali, Arif and Saladin).
SOURCE

Last edited by june 7th; 10-09-2011 at 12:46 PM..
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Old 10-08-2011, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,094,487 times
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Unhappy It never really ends, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings Ranger View Post
It does seem ridiculous that a national atheist organization is going to sue a small town over a cross being on the water tower, to me at least.

The cross doesn't bother anyone, and they aren't going door to door

Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
No, in fact, it's much worse than "door to door", actually. They've just hung it all right in the faces of literally everyone. If an atheist group or individual put up something similarly offensive, as with that leased billboard in Columbus, OH last week, in front of the church, where some witty kid made some rather large comment about being Good without God, the local religious community would get their tighty-whities in a really tight knot! In Columbus, they sure did, and had the billboard immediately removed.

Good Without God Billboard Removed from Columbus… After Church Objects | Irregular Times

So in reality, your next comment about religious tolerance is not quite on the money, frankly. Churches want it all their way, and they want to force their ideals on the community. They as much as say it often enough.
It seems like we are 'civilized' enough to bear a little bit of religious tolerance in the United States, where we worship freely.

It almost appears too easy for atheists to go around complaining about religious symbols here and there and having them taken down for promoting a religion.

He is with the group Freedom From Religion.... I think it's fine to have a group to protect people who are legitimately being offended by a religion, but Freedom FROM religion makes it seem like they are trying to get rid of it entirely.

Atheists do not believe in God... so isn't it easy for them to say everything offends them...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn_huh?
Now that's not a very intelligent nor informed comment, is it? No, everything per se doesn't offend us, just Christian proselytizing in public, and especially if it's done using our tax dollars (as in teaching Creationism as a fact to our kids via our Federal or State education systems).
And without a symbol or anything to rally behind, wouldn't not having anything show up, religious symbol wise, make it look like everyone was an atheist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stunn'd_rflmn
What? Now you've really stumped me. This makes no sense at all, frankly.
It seems to me like they can easily attack a religious group, but cannot be attacked themselves for anything, because they don't have anything...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wowd_rflmn
Oh. I see. We have nothing, huh? No other beliefs (rational or otherwise) no morals, no ethics, no rules, no science, no... well... according to you.. anything. A truly A$$tounding deduction! Here; listen up!

Here's a quick semantics and reality lesson, and it's quite simple, really.

Atheists simply do not believe in your particular Abrahamic God, nor any other wooden iconic sheeple-dependent Gawd-figure. It can be argued that we believe in just one less God than you do, actually. As in: you're simply a selective atheist. (I'm assuming you are a Christian, BTW. Let me know otherwise...)

So yes, in fact, we do have lots of things that fundy Christians object to, like our belief in all those scientifically obtained facts about this earth, about Evolution, about the universe and it's likely or possible origins (versus some improbable and now thoroughly discredited magic acts...). And so on. In fact the church and it's adherents go after us all the time. And how we
re ehtically beereft and all destined for... HELL! O...M...G!!! Just read the threads here, under R&P and Atheism.
Does this make sense? And I don't want to seem close minded, this is just what I picked up from the article, I don't know much about atheism...

Why can atheists claim religious symbols offend them when they have no religion?
Because... oh well... this may well may be quite hopeless, and I'm tired.

Anyone else here? Anyone? Please....?

Last edited by rifleman; 10-08-2011 at 09:13 PM..
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Old 10-08-2011, 10:33 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,316,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
It is called The Separation of Church and State, one of the founding principals of this country.
At a federal level it's a founding principal. At a state or local level it, at least arguably, came a bit later. Connecticut had an established church until 1818. Until 1833 Massachusetts apparently required every man belong to a church. In New Hampshire, until 1877, only Protestants could be in the state legislature.

Still I could see opposition to crosses on purely government-owned land. I'd need to know more on if this tower is federal, state, local, or private owned.
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Old 10-08-2011, 10:35 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,309,947 times
Reputation: 8265
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Kings Ranger is dead on: Atheists need to stop embarassing themselves and grow up. Tolerate others for once - practice what you preach. And - before you think that applied directly to you: please don't.
Just to the extremely selfish ones who have nothing better than to act like legalistic, sue-happy Moderator cut: orphaned with nothing better to do than force a minority viewpoint down the throats of a majority. Welcome to America. Now wait your turn. Private or public - most people don't mind such things and don't see it as America forcing a particular sect down their throat. After all - it was never intended (separation of C and S) to apply to Islam vs Christianity, or Buddhism vs Judaism. The Founding Fathers would never have imagined how this country has turned into a religious melting pot. Never.
They assumed that it would be a nation free of a particular Christian SECT.

It's to the point where little kids get in trouble at school for saying "Merry Christmas" to other students, because of whiny Atheists and Wiccans (lol... wiccans). OH NO! My civil rights as a satanist have been violated by a simple, polite holiday wish - a holiday that America has loved for generations! Happy HOLIDAYS, everyone. Bah. Humbug.
Your christianity is showing..... pull your pants up

Last edited by june 7th; 10-09-2011 at 12:47 PM..
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Old 10-08-2011, 10:37 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,309,947 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
At a federal level it's a founding principal. At a state or local level it, at least arguably, came a bit later. Connecticut had an established church until 1818. Until 1833 Massachusetts apparently required every man belong to a church. In New Hampshire, until 1877, only Protestants could be in the state legislature.

Still I could see opposition to crosses on purely government-owned land. I'd need to know more on if this tower is federal, state, local, or private owned.
State and local are also part of this country, a country founded on freedom of an from religion and the separation of church and state, at all levels.
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Old 10-08-2011, 10:40 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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Reading more of the thread it was a private group, but on a public water tower. So I might agree that they should find a similarly tall building, in private hands, and move the crosses there. Possibly even a privately-owned tower if they have one.

That being said religious symbols on public buildings is pretty common. I believe the Capital building, or one of those, has Moses and Confucius on it. So another possibility is to ask the atheists add the little "A in the Atom" or Darwin fish or whatever symbol on the water tower. And any other group that wants a symbol.
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Old 10-08-2011, 11:15 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,309,947 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Reading more of the thread it was a private group, but on a public water tower. So I might agree that they should find a similarly tall building, in private hands, and move the crosses there. Possibly even a privately-owned tower if they have one.
The Constitution unlike how many treat the bible, is not a buffet where you take the parts you like and ignore the rest.

The same Constitution that guarantees the seperation of church and state, also guarentees is that you can go to church anywhere you please without government intervention.

It is being moved to private land, but I doubt it will be to a tall building. Population is just over 3,000.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
That being said religious symbols on public buildings is pretty common. I believe the Capital building, or one of those, has Moses and Confucius on it. So another possibility is to ask the atheists add the little "A in the Atom" or Darwin fish or whatever symbol on the water tower. And any other group that wants a symbol.
Moses isn't a 'religious symbol', just a character from the story line. Not a god, not a son of god, just a man that may or may not have actually existed.

Or put them all up, all equal in size. No mind you there are a lot of them and from the ground would probably have the appearance of bird droppings. Here's a few.


And of course religious symbols and text, i.e. 10 commandments are being removed from courthouses all over the country.

http://www.gainesville.com/article/2...CLES/110719637
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Old 10-09-2011, 02:35 AM
 
604 posts, read 639,971 times
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I guess I just don't understand why we have to make as big a deal as is being made out of it.

We shouldn't be having legalistic duels where one person challenges the other to a sueing contest...

I think it was Rifleman's status that said, "Atheism is the only "religion" that encourages an open mind"

Seems like letting a cross on a tower slide wouldn't kill anyone...

I've just seen in the news here and there, a large cross taken down at a cemetary... It doesn't seem like it's promoting Christianity as it is showing respect for the dead....

And didn't our Founding Fathers intend Separation of Church and State to only mean the USA wouldn't have an official church?
Seems like we've blown it out of proportion.

I'm not a hardcore Christian, and I get along with Atheists fine, because I've got an open mind and like to discuss the great debate that is religion and the afterlife... but unless there is a banner hanging from a crescent moon and star on a water tower in my town saying "All Christians will burn in hell" or a Cross that says "Jesus loves you, but if you don't love him back you'll burn for eternity" I don't have a problem with the basic symbols of religion.

As far as the holiday's go, it's getting ridiculous the names they call them..

"Winter Break"
"Spring Fling" (apparantly Spring Break had bad connotation ((as if Spring Fling is better??)

I'd understand calling Christmas break/vacation something else, IF there was anyone in my school that actually cared and complained about it...
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Old 10-09-2011, 04:35 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,316,069 times
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I do get where you're coming from, but when you are a disliked religious minority it can change how you see these things. When I was born my family was Catholic in a town where the public schools had revivals. And this was after "school prayer" had been officially banned. I understand that from their perspective this really should have been "no big deal." Revivals was what everyone went to as all the churches in that area agreed they were okay. My family seemed like annoying whiners, or anti-Christian, for not wanting their kid to go to the in-school-assembly/revival. And on some level I can understand their views. That was their community. Why should my parents change what they all did and found uncontroversial? And in the end my family did put some of the siblings in Catholic school instead.

Still we are a nation with both "majority rule" and "minority rights." Possibly having a public building be specifically Christian makes non-Christians of the town feel unwanted or "not really apart of" the town. I think they're probably overreacting a bit, this isn't as intrusive as teacher-led prayer or in-school revivals, but I can sort of see their side too.

If I felt there was some necessary significance to it being on the water tower, like the designer of the tower had wanted it there or something, I might be stronger for keeping it. I know I sided with groups that wanted a cross at some veterans memorial because many veterans are Christian and I don't think pretending that's not so is all that helpful. Being an atheist in the town named here likely does make you a minority and trying to rid the town of everything that will remind one of that would be unrealistic and weird. (My parents wouldn't have demanded the revivals disappear from everywhere just that it be tolerated we wouldn't be part of them) Still I'm not sure why moving it to private land should be that big of a deal. If the atheists were asking for it to be destroyed I'd feel different.

Granted you could get into other issues. Like if say the town had agreed to have a painting on their water tower and the painting was Christian. A painting on a water tower couldn't be moved, I don't think, so would atheists here feel such a painting should be painted over or washed off? Wouldn't that be destruction of art? Or a mural in a state capitol that's Christian. That would be more interesting to me I guess.
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