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Old 10-09-2011, 04:42 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,087,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings Ranger View Post
It does seem ridiculous that a national atheist organization is going to sue a small town over a cross being on the water tower, to me at least.

The cross doesn't bother anyone, and they aren't going door to door
Actually I can think of many reasons why it would bother people. Even without mentioning religion AT ALL.

What is the cross? It is a symbol of how we as humans used to horrifically execute criminals in inhumane and painful ways.

I personally find putting up testaments to such action quite distasteful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings Ranger View Post
It seems like we are 'civilized' enough to bear a little bit of religious tolerance in the United States, where we worship freely.
Then why put up a cross? What about the OTHER religions. A sense of fair play please. Why put up the symbol from one religion only, probably with local state funding and tax payers money, when there are many more religions out there. When is the big bronze buddah statue to be erected beside the cross please tell me? This is the problem with such "religious tolerance" for the erection of crosses and the like. "Religious Tolerance" seems to mean "Let me do what I want but not the other religions".

Jesus was meant to be a god but he got nailed to a cross with hammer and nails. Thor is a god with a hammer. If I erected a statue to thor in that same town... how much tolerance do you think I would be afforded? Hypocracy thy name is Theism.
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Old 10-09-2011, 09:14 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,166,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Founding Fathers would never have imagined how this country has turned into a religious melting pot.

You sure? There were already a number of Muslims and Jews in America at the time the "Founding Fathers" drafted the constitution.

SOURCE
Yeh - pretty sure. And I don't mean that as an insult to anyone, either - just a simple demographic and political fact. There were also a large number of American Indians here, and we know what happened with that situation.... I'm not condoning it - just pointing it out. There's nothing wrong with my melting pot statement - you can see it as a testimony to how the constitution, and this country, was able to evolve to meet changing demands. Not always - but they tried.

Remember - we live in a different age, practically. Our modern ideas of tolerance, suffrage, religion, international relations, etc, are vastly different from when this country was founded. The big mistake is to go back to the Founding Fathers and attempt to make them appear as perfect, politically correct modernists - in our sense of the word. They were what they were - mistakes, blemishes and the human condition and all.
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Old 10-09-2011, 09:18 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,166,342 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Your christianity is showing..... pull your pants up
Now THERE - you are dead wrong. Don't assume that I am a Christian because I am not 100% pro-Atheist modern-methods and I make a complaint.... You will find that assumptions lead you far afield of the actual truth: that I, an Atheist, am truly ashamed of some of the shenanigans my fellow atheists pull to get attention.

Read some of my posts, again - Just because my posts aren't filled with tirades against "stupid" christians and their "myths", doesn't make me a christian. Just because I don't walk around fighting against every christian symbol western civilization (which I happen to like), doesn't make me a christian. That's the whole point - you can be an atheist and NOT be considered a nutjob, or crybaby, or legalistic easily-offended hypocrite.

Last edited by whoppers; 10-09-2011 at 09:27 AM..
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Old 10-09-2011, 09:24 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,166,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Actually I can think of many reasons why it would bother people. Even without mentioning religion AT ALL.

What is the cross? It is a symbol of how we as humans used to horrifically execute criminals in inhumane and painful ways.

I personally find putting up testaments to such action quite distasteful.



Then why put up a cross? What about the OTHER religions. A sense of fair play please. Why put up the symbol from one religion only, probably with local state funding and tax payers money, when there are many more religions out there. When is the big bronze buddah statue to be erected beside the cross please tell me? This is the problem with such "religious tolerance" for the erection of crosses and the like. "Religious Tolerance" seems to mean "Let me do what I want but not the other religions".

Jesus was meant to be a god but he got nailed to a cross with hammer and nails. Thor is a god with a hammer. If I erected a statue to thor in that same town... how much tolerance do you think I would be afforded? Hypocracy thy name is Theism.
Let us know when there is an actual proven tradition of Thor-worship among a majority of a people, stretching back generations and arriving in the modern day (and not just a relic of the past, and of Marvel comics) - and then perhaps the rest of the world won't laugh at the very silly notion that random people should be able to put up Thor's hammers, Juno's Peacocks, etc, whenever a Christian community wants to place a cross up - the sign of their ACTUAL belief system, and not some bid for "equal-religious rights". I don't know how many people realize how utterly non-seriously the rest of the world take a wiccan or a neo-satanist when they try to claim an ancient, suppressed tradition of worship and demand their symbols be honored by the victors.
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Old 10-09-2011, 11:30 AM
 
604 posts, read 640,481 times
Reputation: 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Actually I can think of many reasons why it would bother people. Even without mentioning religion AT ALL.

What is the cross? It is a symbol of how we as humans used to horrifically execute criminals in inhumane and painful ways.

I personally find putting up testaments to such action quite distasteful.



Then why put up a cross? What about the OTHER religions. A sense of fair play please. Why put up the symbol from one religion only, probably with local state funding and tax payers money, when there are many more religions out there. When is the big bronze buddah statue to be erected beside the cross please tell me? This is the problem with such "religious tolerance" for the erection of crosses and the like. "Religious Tolerance" seems to mean "Let me do what I want but not the other religions".

Jesus was meant to be a god but he got nailed to a cross with hammer and nails. Thor is a god with a hammer. If I erected a statue to thor in that same town... how much tolerance do you think I would be afforded? Hypocracy thy name is Theism.
It was the majority that put it up, or not the majority, but people who raised the money to do it.
Muslims, Jews, Buddists could do the same, I don't have a problem with it.
You can put up a Buddah statue and I won't argue, is what I'm saying.

If you seriously worshipped Thor and put up a statue I wouldn't have a problem with it.... If there were people of a different religion there, that wanted to do it, nothing is stopping them from putting up their symbol on top of the water tower with the cross, if there was, THAT is where the lawsuits should begin.

Nothing is stopping Buddists or Muslims from putting their symbol up aside from the lack of them in the area, right?

Even if they are a minority, they could attempt to raise the money and do it.
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Old 10-09-2011, 11:48 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,333,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Now THERE - you are dead wrong. Don't assume that I am a Christian because I am not 100% pro-Atheist modern-methods and I make a complaint.... You will find that assumptions lead you far afield of the actual truth: that I, an Atheist, am truly ashamed of some of the shenanigans my fellow atheists pull to get attention.

Read some of my posts, again - Just because my posts aren't filled with tirades against "stupid" christians and their "myths", doesn't make me a christian. Just because I don't walk around fighting against every christian symbol western civilization (which I happen to like), doesn't make me a christian. That's the whole point - you can be an atheist and NOT be considered a nutjob, or crybaby, or legalistic easily-offended hypocrite.
I like that. When I first came here I was surprised. Most atheists I've known in life or online are like you or June or Dewdrop. I was a bit taken aback at first as some here are self-described evangelizers for atheism or at least self-described evangelizers against religion. I was more used to the "I think it's kind-of stupid, but it's your business so whatever" mode of atheists rather than the "Your religion is an inherent threat to society and me even if you're not doing anything" kind of atheists.

As weird as it sounds I think 9-11 and Bush changed things. Before that atheists had kind of started to believe religion was largely irrelevant in the modern world so if a minority were still of strong belief it didn't matter. You see that in some of Isaac Asimov's final novels. He's clearly dismissive of religion, but he'd describe a planet being "one third tritheists" and be neutral about that. After 9-11 I think many atheists kind of "freaked out" because they realized religion still mattered, could still affect modern nations, and wasn't really becoming irrelevant the way they'd long hoped. So you get a bunch of paranoid rantings about "Dominionists" or "Eurabia" or whatever. Rather than wanting to be one group among many, just as respected as others, you got atheists who more clearly want "to win" in the "culture war."
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Old 10-09-2011, 12:32 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,328,478 times
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Remember in your trumped up outrage over the separation of church and state, as guarenteed by the US Constitution, that it also protects your right to go to what ever church you want to, no mater how bizzar, or hateful or counter to society, civility, or just down right loony it may be, that very same document protects your rights also.

Never loose sight of the fact that worshiping the wrong god in many countries is punishable by death.
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Old 10-09-2011, 01:54 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 24,802,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings Ranger View Post
The cross doesn't bother anyone ...
A Christian Cross on a municipal structure is offensive to me as a Jew.
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Old 10-09-2011, 01:56 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 24,802,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
How about ... the star of david?
Many people, including many Jews, think the Star of David is the symbol of the Jewish religion. It is not.

The 7-branch Temple Menorah (not to be confused with the 8-branch Chanukah Menorah) is the religious symbol of the Jewish faith, but Jewish law prevents its public display in the same manner as Christians display the Cross, the religious symbol of the Christian faith.

It is at times of public display that the 6-pointed Magen Duveed (Star of David), the ensign of the House of David and the secular symbol of the Jewish people, is substituted for the 7-Branch Temple Menorah. This is confusing, and even many Jews think that the Star of David is a religious symbol, which it is not.

Additionally, you may find it interesting to know that it's a great surprise to many that G. Washington and the other founding fathers (mostly Free Masons, I've been told) included the Magen Duveed (Star of David), the secular symbol of the Jewish people, on the Great Seal of the United States. You can readily see it by looking directly above the Eagle on the reverse of the one-dollar bill (it's in the stars).
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Old 10-09-2011, 02:10 PM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,087,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Let us know when there is an actual proven tradition of Thor-worship among a majority of a people.... the rest of the world won't laugh at the very silly notion that random people should be able to put up Thor's hammers, Juno's Peacocks, etc
You make my point for me so! Thanks. It seems "respect" for religion is only warranted if the religion in question has significant numbers subscribing to it. This is exactly the point I am highlighting and you could not have exampled it better had you given me your password and let me write the post myself!

However the idea a dead man came back to life after three days and had magic powers like walking on water, feeding many people with a hand full of food, flight without the aid of technology and more... is entirely unsubstantiated. The only difference between it and any of the other unsubstantiated ideas in this world is the number of subscribers.

Argumentum ad populum is not a good position to use for deciding when and when not to afford respect to others. I heard it put wonderfully once... if you think saying latin at your pancakes turns your pancakes into Elvis... you are insane.... if you think saying latin at crackers turns the crackers into Jesus.... you are just Catholic.

Yet magic crackers and magic pancakes have the EXACT same amount of evidence for them. None. The only difference between the ideas is the number of people who think it is true. Is truth to be decided by popular vote now? I will certainly resist THAT with every fibre of my being.
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