U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-09-2011, 01:12 PM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,064,358 times
Reputation: 2972

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings Ranger View Post
If you seriously worshipped Thor and put up a statue I wouldn't have a problem with it....
You claim you would not, but I only have your word for it. However that is irrelevant as I was not talking about you. I was talking about "the masses" in general and I think we both know that people will generally fight as hard to rid symbols of other religions as they will to have their own. In fact the commandments about False Idols in the Abrahamic Faiths all but demands they act in this fashion.

However as I said, even if you leave religion out of it totally, erecting a monument to human execution is hardly tasteful.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-09-2011, 01:28 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,247,078 times
Reputation: 8261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
Many people, including many Jews, think the Star of David is the symbol of the Jewish religion. It is not.
Guess that common usage has created that conception.

US Veterans buried in a Veterans Cemetery are provided a headstone by the VA. In addition to Name, rank, branch of service, dates and a short saying, a religious symbol or none is a choice.

Here are the choices available:
Available Emblems of Belief for Placement on Government Headstones and Markers - Burial and Memorial Benefits
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 01:33 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 24,247,078 times
Reputation: 8261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
However as I said, even if you leave religion out of it totally, erecting a monument to human execution is hardly tasteful.
Make that days of torture ending in death, not really an execution, a much more sadistic symbol than the noose, headsman's axe, or guillotine, which though gruesome (at least by today's standards) were quick.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 01:57 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 24,703,142 times
Reputation: 4450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
US Veterans buried in a Veterans Cemetery are provided a headstone by the VA.
Because Jewish Law and custom is for Jews to be buried in Jewish cemteries, most Jewish war veterans opt out from being buried in a VA cemetery, and chose, or their families chose, burial in a private, Jewish cemetery.

The is the same reason for the lack of Stars of David, relative to the number of Jewish soldiers who died, in European military cemeteries is because the families of fallen Jewish soldiers opted to have the body flown back for burial in a private, Jewish cemetery in the States.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 03:19 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,151,539 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I like that. When I first came here I was surprised. Most atheists I've known in life or online are like you or June or Dewdrop. I was a bit taken aback at first as some here are self-described evangelizers for atheism or at least self-described evangelizers against religion. I was more used to the "I think it's kind-of stupid, but it's your business so whatever" mode of atheists rather than the "Your religion is an inherent threat to society and me even if you're not doing anything" kind of atheists.

As weird as it sounds I think 9-11 and Bush changed things. Before that atheists had kind of started to believe religion was largely irrelevant in the modern world so if a minority were still of strong belief it didn't matter. You see that in some of Isaac Asimov's final novels. He's clearly dismissive of religion, but he'd describe a planet being "one third tritheists" and be neutral about that. After 9-11 I think many atheists kind of "freaked out" because they realized religion still mattered, could still affect modern nations, and wasn't really becoming irrelevant the way they'd long hoped. So you get a bunch of paranoid rantings about "Dominionists" or "Eurabia" or whatever. Rather than wanting to be one group among many, just as respected as others, you got atheists who more clearly want "to win" in the "culture war."
Yes, I hear ya'. Asimov actually wrote a very large book on the Bible, detailing every single book, from a historical perspective. It's a very good book, and a great introduction to Christianity and Judaism and the books they consider scripture. I highly reccomend it, in case anyone hasn't seen it or even heard of it. It may surprise some that he even spent the time writing it. But an understanding of the Bible is crucial to understanding Western Civilization, and almost ALL of the great literary, architectural and musical works of art that make us who we are.

That's part of my points - one can study the Bible for what it is: literature, a window into the past, a clue to understanding the immense power that religion has played on mankind, etc. So many atheists go into rage-mode without bothering to even get a sufficient education in what they are fighting against. Many of them seem to make the same hackneyed complaints against religion that every high-schooler makes, and base their understanding on modern religion from fundamentalists. They are surprised (if they ever learn) that most modern religious denominations have given up the literal, orthodox approach and are extremely secular in how they approach the Bible. A glance at almost any reputable scholarly work on the subject reveals a very scientific approach to the Bible and the Ancient Near East, without the fundamentlist trappings that many atheists assume ALL christians seem to share, when it is only a very vocal minority that the rest of Christendom wishes would just roll over and die, or get with the program. The modern denominations are in an active dialogue with many scholars on the Theological issues, while fundamentlists tend to exclude themselves by viewing modernistic, scientific approaches to religion as faulty.

Unfortunately - like you say: many atheists see this is as some kind of war, and begin acting just as badly as the people they condemn. Those same people they condemn have usually moved PAST those old proselytizing ways of violence and superstition, and are now actively engaged in good, scholarly work and discoveries of immense importance. Tolerance, on the other hand, is thrown out in most atheist's hands - and they demand some strange sort of equality in displaying symbols, and have to scramble madly to find some. We are still living in a culture highly influenced by Christianity - and this is a fact.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 03:22 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,151,539 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
You make my point for me so! Thanks. It seems "respect" for religion is only warranted if the religion in question has significant numbers subscribing to it. This is exactly the point I am highlighting and you could not have exampled it better had you given me your password and let me write the post myself!

However the idea a dead man came back to life after three days and had magic powers like walking on water, feeding many people with a hand full of food, flight without the aid of technology and more... is entirely unsubstantiated. The only difference between it and any of the other unsubstantiated ideas in this world is the number of subscribers.

Argumentum ad populum is not a good position to use for deciding when and when not to afford respect to others. I heard it put wonderfully once... if you think saying latin at your pancakes turns your pancakes into Elvis... you are insane.... if you think saying latin at crackers turns the crackers into Jesus.... you are just Catholic.

Yet magic crackers and magic pancakes have the EXACT same amount of evidence for them. None. The only difference between the ideas is the number of people who think it is true. Is truth to be decided by popular vote now? I will certainly resist THAT with every fibre of my being.
Nobody is deciding truth in this manner - it's simply democracy. Nobody ever said that the majority opinion is a truthful one - it frequently is the exact opposite. But that's how it is. If the courts didn't defend every lone wiccan demanding their own little winter solstice display being set up next to a nativity somewhere - majority rule would squash their silly, and pointedly political "outrage" at being marginalized.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 03:24 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,151,539 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
A Christian Cross on a municipal structure is offensive to me as a Jew.
Many things offend me in this country - but that's what's great about it: different peoples from different backgrounds can coexist together, IF they don't insist that their sensitive feelings are more important than just practicing tolerance.

Tolerance means, basically, "putting up with something you hate or despise". It's not easy to do so, but it's a worthy goal.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 03:28 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,151,539 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Guess that common usage has created that conception.

US Veterans buried in a Veterans Cemetery are provided a headstone by the VA. In addition to Name, rank, branch of service, dates and a short saying, a religious symbol or none is a choice.

Here are the choices available:
Available Emblems of Belief for Placement on Government Headstones and Markers - Burial and Memorial Benefits
I suppose someone will someday complain about this - after all, any religious icons on a governmental structure (cemetery of court building) just annoys the heck out of them. They see it as a personal insult to their obvious non-religiousness.
I wonder how the dead veterans would feel about that? Knowing that they died to give freedom to invividuals to restrict the freedoms of the majority, in favor of the minority's feigned 'offended' stance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 04:11 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 24,703,142 times
Reputation: 4450
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Tolerance means, basically, "putting up with something you hate or despise". It's not easy to do so, but it's a worthy goal.
Not when the thing you are being asked to tolerate is illegal.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 04:16 PM
 
2,031 posts, read 2,296,446 times
Reputation: 1375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
State and local are also part of this country, a country founded on freedom of an from religion and the separation of church and state, at all levels.
The United States was founded on nice principles, though at first they were rather selectively applied, such as with that whole "All men [not persons, just men] are created equal" thing.

The Bill of Rights only restricted the powers of the federal government until Incorporation by virtue of the Due Process Clause of Amendment XIV. This amendment was ratified in 1868, but the process of Incorporation -- applying the Bill of Rights to all sub-federal levels of government -- did not begin until the 1890s. It is still not complete -- parts of the Bill of Rights still do not restrict powers of states/counties/cities/etc. An example is Amendment III, which has only been Incorporated by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals (since 1982), so is only incorporated in CT, VT and NY.

The States ratified the Bill of Rights to curb the federal goverment, but for a long time after that they jealously guarded their power to infringe on many of the rights that today we see as universal. I doubt they'd have ratified Amendment XIV at all had they realized that jurists would one day fid Incorporation within it.

The Free Exercise Clause was not incorporated until Cantwell v. Connecticut (1940):
Cantwell v. Connecticut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Establishment Clause was not incorporated until Everson v. Board of Education (1947)
Everson v. Board of Education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top