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Old 10-10-2011, 11:34 AM
 
604 posts, read 638,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
The Christian Cross represents the Christian religion which is an idolatrous belief, a belief in other than the one, true G-d, and hence the Christian Cross is idolatrous.
At that point, where you accuse a religion of being incorrect, you are backing the arguement up with your own belief.
Unless I misunderstood the comment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Again that is my point! Affording people respect is not a democratic issue. Which is why when you the suggestion was made that one religion should be respected and another not... solely on the basis of the number of subscribers.... my point could not have been made better for me if I had been given the password to write the posts myself!

One would hope we do not afford people respect on the basis of them conforming to the majority opinions and ways of life.
Not sure if this was derived from my comment of the possibility of the majority of the townspeople being Christian, but I never intended to say respect is given on depending on how many support the religion.

I thought/think that the town, seeming to have a Christian majority, probably accepted the cross being on top of the water tower.

I think maybe if the National Atheist group had asked that the cross be removed before threatening to sue, might have made it seem like they were more tolerant, but as is, it seems like they shot first and asked questions later. It might not have done anything, the town might have declined, but it would have set the stage for a lawsuit, as opposed to jumping right into it.

Considering the mayor called them terrorists right off the bat, doesn't help things....
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:36 AM
 
9,341 posts, read 24,703,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings Ranger View Post
At that point, where you accuse a religion of being incorrect, you are backing the arguement up with your own belief.
Unless I misunderstood the comment...
You understood me correctly.
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Old 10-10-2011, 12:49 PM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,064,358 times
Reputation: 2972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings Ranger View Post
Not sure if this was derived from my comment of the possibility of the majority of the townspeople being Christian, but I never intended to say respect is given on depending on how many support the religion.
It was derived from an amalgamation of posters on this thread, yourself included. The feeling I am getting is that more respect should be afforded to bigger groups. Because there are millions of Christians their testament to human execution should be erected. Because there might be 5 or 10 people who still think there is a Thor, they should not be so respected.

This is the issue. Respect is an equal opportunity thing. It is not proportional to the size of the group you want to afford it to.

Erecting such monuments to death really is a way of saying "This is a Christian town, the Christians have the power here, if you are not one of us you are in the minority and this statue/monument is here to remind you of that".

The idea of secularism and the wall of seperation is to not allow such displays of power by numbers. I respect people, not ideas. I do not respect these peoples religion. Nor should I be expected to. I respect the people and the people alone. However if the most intelligent people, who I respect with all my being, come up with stupid ideas.... I will respect them enough to tell them so.

I reject this often touted idea that questing the religion of people is a show of lack of respect. For two reasons. Firstly You can disrespect ideas without disrepsecting people. Secondly if you really respect people then you should be helping divest them of stupid ideas, not simply shutting up and letting them get on with it. I fight against religion BECAUSE of love and respect for my fellow man, not in spite of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings Ranger View Post
I think maybe if the National Atheist group had asked that the cross be removed before threatening to sue
I would agree with that, but I would hasten to point out that this is nothing to do with atheism, or religion. It is alas a trait of american culture that people go legal first and actually talk to each other later. I find shame in this and would like to see such a situation change. Legal culture in the US has become out of hand and somewhat embarrassing. From an outsiders perspective it is ludicrous.
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:03 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,151,539 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is what it is supposed to be. But the problem arises that people take things on their own and it often becomes a worship of the object.

I do believe that the Catholics do a much better job at making people aware that the statues are reminers and not objects of worship. In spite of the criticism you get from non-Catholics most Catholics do see themas simple reminders. I personally believe the "Cross" people have a high inclination to worship the cross as with out the human figure they fail to see it as a reminder and slip over to worship.
Very well put - I suppose anything has the possibility of becoming an "idol". This, however, does not change the original purpose of the symbol or icon.

If we take this further, then we get to the current stage of moderns condemning religions because some of their adherents commitin atrocities, or otherwise acting in opposition to the religion's original teachings. Of course - we see threads based on this misunderstanding all the time on this forum!
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:13 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,572,373 times
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In Christianity the biggest Idol is the bible, which rather then just take as a series of text it is instead often seen as imbued with miraculous qualities such imfalability and inerrent accuracy.

In many ways the bible itself is worshipped, but the Christians who are doing it don't recognize that they are doing so.
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:21 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,151,539 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
It was derived from an amalgamation of posters on this thread, yourself included. The feeling I am getting is that more respect should be afforded to bigger groups. Because there are millions of Christians their testament to human execution should be erected. Because there might be 5 or 10 people who still think there is a Thor, they should not be so respected.

This is the issue. Respect is an equal opportunity thing. It is not proportional to the size of the group you want to afford it to.

Erecting such monuments to death really is a way of saying "This is a Christian town, the Christians have the power here, if you are not one of us you are in the minority and this statue/monument is here to remind you of that".

The idea of secularism and the wall of seperation is to not allow such displays of power by numbers. I respect people, not ideas. I do not respect these peoples religion. Nor should I be expected to. I respect the people and the people alone. However if the most intelligent people, who I respect with all my being, come up with stupid ideas.... I will respect them enough to tell them so.

I reject this often touted idea that questing the religion of people is a show of lack of respect. For two reasons. Firstly You can disrespect ideas without disrepsecting people. Secondly if you really respect people then you should be helping divest them of stupid ideas, not simply shutting up and letting them get on with it. I fight against religion BECAUSE of love and respect for my fellow man, not in spite of it.



I would agree with that, but I would hasten to point out that this is nothing to do with atheism, or religion. It is alas a trait of american culture that people go legal first and actually talk to each other later. I find shame in this and would like to see such a situation change. Legal culture in the US has become out of hand and somewhat embarrassing. From an outsiders perspective it is ludicrous.

It appears that you have been smitten with modern political correctness, and so much so that you seem to feel that everything is equal, and should be accorded an equal amount of respect. This is just plain wishful thinking.

Give one good reason WHY we should respect everyone's ideas equally, please. Perhaps I will give a little story as to why we should NOT do so:

1- There is a fire. One man suggests using water to douse it. Another suggests gasoline. Clearly - one idea is better than the other.
2- The owner of the house believes that each person's idea should be respected, but his house is on fire and the fire needs doused. So it continues to burn. Why? It would be insensitive for the owner to choose one idea over another.
3- A bystander points out that if a poll were taken concerning which method to use, water would win every time. It has a proven track record, and previous experience shows its efficicacy. Nozzferrahhtoo steps in and prepares to tell the bystander that both ideas should be respected, and to pipe down.
4- Suddenly, he realizes that this would result in disrespecting the bystander's idea of solving the problem by suggesting a solution as verified through common experience. Nozzferrahhtoo decides to hold his tongue.
5- But shouldn't his own idea of suggestion be considered?

In the end - a lawyer walks up and forces the home owner to permit the use of gasoline on his home. His home burns down, he becomes homeless, and political correctness and the respecting of all ideas is upheld gloriously! The end..... of common sense and human collective wisdom. Thank GOD nobody was offended. Oh crap - I used the word "GOD". I just offended people who would prefer G-D, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Little Suzy, and a host of others... Sorry.

Ok, now it's your turn hee hee!
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:26 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,151,539 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
In Christianity the biggest Idol is the bible, which rather then just take as a series of text it is instead often seen as imbued with miraculous qualities such imfalability and inerrent accuracy.

In many ways the bible itself is worshipped, but the Christians who are doing it don't recognize that they are doing so.
That is very true, but I don't think they view the Bible as a God.
Remember - the prohibition against idols was intended to stop Israelites (specifically) from worshipping graven images that represented gods. Christians already dismiss the Tanakah and the law of God as an old relic, an Old Testament - so they shouldn't have to worry about that commandment against idols: they don't follow the Mosaic Law.

There were only a few points of the law that Paul told his followers to keep. Jesus, on the other hand (in the Gospel of Matthew), told his followers to keep the law even better than the scribes and Pharisees: he was in favor of relaxing some of the law's points, while increasing some of the law's points more severely.
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:29 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,151,539 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
The Christian Cross represents the Christian religion which is an idolatrous belief, a belief in other than the one, true G-d, and hence the Christian Cross is idolatrous.
That's all you got from my post? Just that? Come on... you can do better than that....

How is the Christian Religion an "idolatrous belief"? Your post doesn't make much sense, I'm afraid to admit. Your final point does NOT follow from the previous ones.
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:38 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 24,703,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
... they don't follow the Mosaic Law.
They are not required to do so; non-Jews are only required to follow the 7 Noahide Commandments .
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:39 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 24,703,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
How is the Christian Religion an "idolatrous belief"?
Because it is a belief in other than the one, true G-d.
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