U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-09-2011, 02:01 PM
 
646 posts, read 531,316 times
Reputation: 46

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by leytonthom View Post
Permissible by society, yes. Permissible by any factor in general.
Which society permits it?
And explain that last remark - please.


(\__/)
( . )
>(^)<

Wilson
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-09-2011, 02:05 PM
 
5,210 posts, read 8,846,505 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Res Ipso View Post
Hitler and Bundy prove that megalomania, mass-hysteria and mental illness exist.

It's dismissive to chalk up history's bad actors as "evil." It suggests nothing can be done to prevent or help people with mental illness or propensities to commit crime. That's an inherently religious worldview, and it's lazy.

If we dismisss the criminal as evil, it destroys any motivation to understand why people act in certain ways. That's a dangerous and ignorant public policy.
Not all criminals are evil, many (probably most) have the capacity to reform. But people who do horrible things to other people without remorse are just plain evil in my view. They are missing the part that makes us human.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 02:24 PM
 
646 posts, read 531,316 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by springfieldva View Post
I think there is Good vs. Bad and Good vs. Evil.
Rationalizing is easy!
Quote:
You can do a bad thing (lie, hurt someone) without necessarily being an evil person.
So - what kind of people do bad things? When a good man does a bad thing, he has BECOME a bad man.
EVIL: Definition;
Anything that results in pain suffering or distress.
Quote:
You can do good things for the wrong (and sometimes evil) reasons. Ex: rescue a turtle off of a busy street with the purpose of gaining the trust and respect of others - who you in turn plan to abuse.
Doing "good" things for wrong reasons amounts to doing something bad. Eg: Pablo Escobar, Columbian drug king, gave millions to poor villagers without ordering them to mislead government authorities. They just did it. He was still an evil man, although not to the villagers.
Scripture:
"If I lie and it brings glory to God, why does he still judge me as as sinner?" (Romans 3:7) Because lying is wrong and can never be used for doing right - no matter how justified it seems to you.
Quote:
Evil people do horrendously bad things to other people without remorse.
EVIL: Definition;
Anything that results in pain, suffering or distress.
It is not remorse or lack of it that makes it evil.


(\__/)
( . )
>(^)<

Wilson
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 02:36 PM
 
5,210 posts, read 8,846,505 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
Rationalizing is easy!
So - what kind of people do bad things? When a good man does a bad thing, he has BECOME a bad man.
EVIL: Definition;
Anything that results in pain suffering or distress.
Doing "good" things for wrong reasons amounts to doing something bad. Eg: Pablo Escobar, Columbian drug king, gave millions to poor villagers without ordering them to mislead government authorities. They just did it. He was still an evil man, although not to the villagers.
Scripture:
"If I lie and it brings glory to God, why does he still judge me as as sinner?" (Romans 3:7) Because lying is wrong and can never be used for doing right - no matter how justified it seems to you.
EVIL: Definition;
Anything that results in pain, suffering or distress.
It is not remorse or lack of it that makes it evil.


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson
I don't know that I agree with that definition of evil, though. Where did you get it from?

To me that is more a definition of bad than evil. Since no person is perfect, all people are capable of doing bad things - who hasn't caused some amount of pain, suffering, distress in their lives? But few people would be capable of harming others without a shred of remorse. To me, lack of empathy/remorse is what gives a person the capacity for pure evil.

Last edited by springfieldva; 10-09-2011 at 02:45 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 03:17 PM
 
5,210 posts, read 8,846,505 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Res Ipso View Post
Again, that's a silly, religiously superstitious worldview that flows straight from the science-denying pulpit. It's the thinking that makes people believe in ghosts, fairies, and deities with zero evidence.

Human beings with severe mental illness are human, whether you like it or not. Infants have no understanding of right or wrong, and -- if they had the power -- would likely kill to get a toy back from a playmate. They have zero thoughts that don't involve self-interest. It doesn't mean they're "inhuman", it just means their brains have not developed. Similarly, pathological criminals often have deficiencies in their mental processes. Yet they're as human as you and I.
Mental illness, in itself, does not lead people to commit evil deeds. There are many people struggling with mental illness, most do not commit criminal acts and even fewer intentionally harm others without an ounce of remorse.

I disagree that babies and toddlers would kill a playmate (or smaller children or animals) if they had the power to do so. Unlike evil adults, when small children hurt a playmate in a fit of anger they do not get a thrill out of doing so.

Evil adults not only get some kind of sick pleasure in hurting others, they actually plan ways to do so (something that babies and animals can not do). That is not a human like trait.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Capital Hill
1,602 posts, read 2,645,589 times
Reputation: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by leytonthom View Post
Most acts labelled "evil" will occur. Our nature is to lend to malevolence on occasion. So where does the distinction of good and evil come from?

And as morals are relative, then how can good and evil be objectively defined?
The next question would be, was 9/11, the destruction of the World Trade Center, evil? or was it just 'relative'?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 03:54 PM
 
5,210 posts, read 8,846,505 times
Reputation: 5865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Res Ipso View Post
That's because not all mental illness is created equal. Just as not all cancer is the same. I also never said mental illness alone is the cause of wrongdoing. You really need to start reading what people say.



You have absolutely no way of knowing this. You're just tossing around baseless assertions. There are plenty of children who get a thrill out of hurting others. Countless psychologists have identified this trait in children.



Again, more completely false, baseless attempts to reshape what has been accepted behavioral science for decades.
I did read what you wrote. And it sounds as though we agree that mental illness alone is not the cause of wrongdoing.

If we can both agree that is true, than we should also be able to agree that mental illness, alone, can not explain why Ted Bundy did what he did to his victims. He also made choices. Really awful choices.

No way would a baby or an animal have the capacity to plan and carry out the harmful acts that Bundy carried out nor could they make the evil choices that Bundy made. And, unlike evil adults, small children can not yet comprehend the consequences that their actions have on others.

Last edited by springfieldva; 10-09-2011 at 04:13 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 04:29 PM
 
646 posts, read 531,316 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by springfieldva View Post
I don't know that I agree with that definition of evil, though. Where did you get it from?
You may not agree, but why?
Quote:
To me that is more a definition of bad than evil.
Friend - bad IS evil - evil is bad.
BAD: Definition;
Wicked: morally evil, blameworthy or unacceptable
Harmful: liable to damage health or cause injury.
Rotten: rotted or deteriorated in quality to the point of being unfit to eat or drink. (Microsoft Works Dictionary)
Quote:
Since no person is perfect, all people are capable of doing bad things - who hasn't caused some amount of pain, suffering, distress in their lives?
Ah! The old excuse - Nobody's perfect! True - but the Bible explains how that came to be. What is evolution's explanation?
Only bad people do bad things. Good people do good things. That is what defines them - what they DO! The capacity for wrongdoing is not what makes a person bad or evil. The capacity for learning does not make a person educated. No society condemns a person for what they are capable of doing. Otherwise we all stand condemned. But we are not! Some of us , with a lot of spiritual help, have learned self-control!
Quote:
But few people would be capable of harming others without a shred of remorse. To me, lack of empathy/remorse is what gives a person the capacity for pure evil.
Society is now engaged in TEACHING its citizens how to reject remorse. Films, plays, videos, books, songs, the military - every form of communication is now actively engaged in showing people how to do bad without feeling regret. Remember the lyrics for the song: "My Way?"
That means more and more people are being coached for the DOING of evil.
The ToE effectively destroys the attractiveness of empathy by its emphasis on "survival of the fittest."


(\__/)
( . )
>(^)<

Wilson
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 04:34 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,165,209 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
A typical canned response!
Would you be thinking of its subjectiveness when you are on the receiving end of pain, sorrow or distress caused by others?



(\__/)
( . )
>(^)<

Wilson
Whether you're thinking of something or not while something is happening, does not invalidate the fact that by nature - humans tend to be violent, until the civilization effects of society mold them into social creatures. In that aspect, it's part of our DNA....I wouldn't blame my actions on DNA, however.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-09-2011, 04:38 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,165,209 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by schmidty223 View Post
Evil exists of course. Free will lets individuals choose between good and evil. If you take the religious perspective, then evil was created when Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the forbidden tree. Religious or not, evil does exist. Would a man who rapes, murders, and doesn't regret it be evil?
Is the fox that kills the mother rabbit and her babies evil?

Evil wasn't created when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (NOTICE the name of the Tree, even though it's probably a merism for basically "everything" - all knowledge) - they only became aware of what the concepts are, and thus became responsible for the punishments that are meted out for breaking those moral laws.

Innocence lost is a famous term here. The fox, not having eaten from the Tree, has no knowledge of good or evil - hence it would be unjust to punish the fox for it's actions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top