U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-10-2011, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,706,045 times
Reputation: 7383

Advertisements

First a sincere Thank you for addressing the Topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
If it doesn't interact with the physical universe it doesn't matter. If it does, it should leave evidence - but you've already admitted that it probably doesn't. Seems like this line of arguing leads to problems for the believer no matter which way they take it.
It presents mostly a problem for us theist in terms of explaining to a non-believer why we believe in the existence of God(swt) Non believers always demand solid, measurable physical proof or a preponderance of irrefutable evidence. For us theists no physical proof is needed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
The same kinds of evidence that convince me that earthworms are real. Why is it so easy to prove that they exist and so difficult to prove that your god does? If she were really as important as you claim, it should be the opposite.
God(swt) has no need of mankind, it is we who have need of him. First we need to find reason to believe in Him. Then we need to learn how we can make ourselves worthy of eternal life in heaven.

Depends. For us Muslims it is perfectly logical God(swt) would not make his existence physically measurable. We see earth and life on it, as a test, a challenge and an obstacle course, along with being a time of learning.

This time of being in the Dun'ya(Life on earth) is some thing we need to find our way through if we are to be rewarded in Heaven.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
Your lack of understanding isn't evidence. Neither is your opinion on the matter. Now your reasons for having the opinion might be interesting, should you care to share them.
My reasons for having this opinion is based only on personal experience. It is a long story and can be read HERE
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-10-2011, 07:57 AM
 
Location: USA - midwest
5,945 posts, read 4,754,758 times
Reputation: 2606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This thread is the result of a conversation I been having with Nozzferrahhtoo in another thread.


the question is can we theists put foth proof or evidence that would be acceptable to an Atheist. I personally doubt we could put up measurable replicable proof as God(swt) is not part of the physical realm and not measurable by physical means.


However, I believe we can present evidence. Please enter what you consider evidence of God(swt) and why.

I will be lazy and begin with the most obvious. That being the fact that matter exists. I can only see a few reason why matter exists.


1. The spontaneous creation of matter is the natural result of nothing.


2. Matter has always existed, it is eternal


3. It was created by a being who exists outside the Physical universe.


In my opinion 3 makes the most sense and I submit that as evidence for the existence of God(swt)
Then all you have to do is present some evidence to back up your opinion. Or be satisfied that it will never progress beyond your opinion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2011, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,706,045 times
Reputation: 7383
Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
Ah, the Kalam argument. It sounds sensible (I believe it's one of the best arguments for theism), but it's unnecessary to explain the existence of the universe. The Big Bang could have happened via a quantum fluctuation in the vacuum of nonexistence (or the multiverse, depending on your views of M-Theory). In either case, the universe would form from nothing by purely naturalistic processes, no supernatural beings required.
I'm ancient. I was at one time a strong adherent of Einstein's explanation of matter being the natural occurrence of disruptions in the space-time continuum, It did provide a very good model for explaining gravity and a plausible explanation of matter as that in that framework nothing was the building block of matter.

Yes there are and will continue to be many explanations of how matter was created. To me the most logical one being that it was created by an intelligent entity who exists outside the physical universe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2011, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,706,045 times
Reputation: 7383
Quote:
Originally Posted by wade52 View Post
Then all you have to do is present some evidence to back up your opinion. Or be satisfied that it will never progress beyond your opinion.
To be honest I really don't care. I have no need or reason not to be satisfied if this never progresses beyond my own opinion. I really have no need nor desire to convince anybody of anything. I was hoping some other theists would post their evidence for the existence of God(swt).

I'm not a very good theist as I see no reason I should try to convince anyone of the existence of God(swt).

It is a swim or sink world and we each have the responsibility on our own shoulders to search all possibilities. Each person need only no that they have searched and know that they alone are responsible for how they make their choices.

I am at the age I am tired of swimming and am satisfied with my current choices and accept them as my swan song as my days fade away.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2011, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,706,045 times
Reputation: 7383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
That is not evidence for anything though. You were in a bad place and the way of life of a certain religion appealed to you. Fair enough, I can not object to that.
I used to say very similar words to my clients during the years of my last career. My last working career was as a Psychologist. although most of my interest and work was in the area of research, primarily brain mapping and trying to determine a link between cognitive thought and the existence of visual engrams.

At times money was scarce and I had to work as a counselor at a Rehabilitation Center for the recently severely disabled. It was very common for those coming to the realization they were going to spend the rest of their life paralyzed from the neck down, to "discover" religion.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Nothing in that even comes close to suggesting that there is a god, that an illiterate man likely suffering from Cynophobia and pedophilia was dictated a book by invisible voices, or that when we die we are all going to some great after life in the sky.
If you do not read and write Arabic. I can not explain to you the literary wonder of the Qur'an. No human could have written such a work. Spoken Arabic is ver gutteral and a harsh sounding language. It is virtually impossible to wrote a pleasant sounding song, or poem and have it make sense. Yet, the Qur'an has done so for 114 Surahs (about 600 pages of standard size text).

The Qur'an is written in such a manner that the Surats can be read in any order and still maintain a smooth flow of though and no loss of the rhythm.

If you ever study Arabic Literature do a critique of the writing style of the Qur'an.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
If the way of life appeals to you then that is great for you. However we are alas talking about two massively different things. I am asking for evidence there is a god. You are talking about evidence that religion can lead SOME people to live a better life. We could not be talking about more different things.
I really doubt if I or any one could provide and evidence or proof a non-believer would accept. On a personal basis at one time I did not find anything that convinced me that God(swt) existed, just evidence that He might. The proof of God(swt) for a theist is internal and not acceptable as evidence to any non-believer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2011, 10:56 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,115,002 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
the question is can we theists put foth proof or evidence that would be acceptable to an Atheist.
I would never say you CANT but after 18+ years of asking people for it and getting nothing... not just a little but nothing... in response one has to suspect CANT may actually be the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I personally doubt we could put up measurable replicable proof as God(swt) is not part of the physical realm and not measurable by physical means.
What I told you in the other thread, what I am sure I have told you on other threads before that too, and what I will tell you again here because you appear to have forgotten it again... is that many of us... like myself... do not ask for "proof". We also do not tie you to the "physical realm".

What I ask for is massively easier to answer. I ask for ANY evidence, argument, data OR reasons to lend even a modicum of credibility to the idea that there is a non-human intelligence out there responsible for the creation and/or subsequent maintenance of our universe.

Yet despite making the bar that low I still get cop out excuses of people saying there is loads of evidence... but they will just not be giving it to me today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I can only see a few reason
A human failing is thinking that just because only a few answers to a problem come to mind, that the answer must be therefore one of those.

The fact is the origin of matter is massively beyond our current understanding. Just because the lay man can come up with some basic ideas on how it could come about... does not mean in ANY way that one of these ideas must be true.

In fact GIVEN that time is an attribute of the universes current form that means that whatever the answer is to this question it will likely not be a temporal one involving time... causes... causality or any of that.

And the fact is our mind just is not equipped to think or talk in those terms. So it is likely ALL the ideas we currently have for where matter came from are entirely wrong, including the "god" idea. Mathematics is currently the only language we have that can be spoken independent of time.

Whatever the answer is I would love to know it, but what I do know is that we are in no position to make up things and think they are true, solely because they make sense to us.... and the idea there is a god out there is just one of those ideas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2011, 11:00 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,115,002 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If you do not read and write Arabic. I can not explain to you the literary wonder of the Qur'an.
An easy thing to just declare. Not so easy to prove. I think you will find the capabilities of individual humans in ALL works of life, especially the literary, can far excel the average skills of the masses at times. That books like yours and the King James Bible are beautifully written is something you will never hear me argue against. I am well aware of their beauty as a text.

That this is evidence for non human entities however. No it is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I did not find anything that convinced me that God(swt) existed, just evidence that He might.
Then you were one step ahead of me even then as I have not been shown by anyone, much less by you, even evidence for the "might" which is exactly what I am asking for when I use words like "modicum of credence".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2011, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,087 posts, read 4,998,478 times
Reputation: 2485
Intellectual atheists only accept that which can be weighed and measured in the lab. They would accept the existance of x god if believers provided empirically verified evidence for one, although theistic arguments are all based on either ignorance or conclusions based on flawed data. Example, the cosmological argument which gives the three options that either the universe came from nothing, it existed eternally or a supreme being created it. The problem with this argument is that it asserts an answer which is unsupported by evidence, which also stops further inquiry into forming an explanation based on replicbale data. These sort of arguments are really just saying that because we don't know the answer then god must be the answer. Atheists/agnostics reject this line of reasoning because they prefer explanations based on empirical data.

Last edited by agnostic soldier; 10-10-2011 at 11:29 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2011, 11:26 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,609,408 times
Reputation: 1760
Certain types of gods would be hard to prove exist. An impersonal god that doesn't intervene in human affairs would be very hard to prove one way or the other.

But the god of Abraham should be easy to prove exists, if he is real. Because that god is supposed to intervene in human affairs, and thus his intervention should be easily detected.

For example, if one believes their god will cure at least some of their believers some of the time when they are sick, that would be super-simple to detect. Just do a study on people who have had some form of cancer and see if the ones who prayed to their god were cured at a significantly higher rate than athiest who meditate or people who pray to different gods.

If the Abrahamic god folks were surviving cancer at a 30% better rate than anyone else, you could make a pretty good case for god existing.

If one thinks the power of prayer can move mountains, then move mountains already. Besides saving the tax payers a great deal of money on road building, it would go a long way to proving that god is real.

About the only way that it's hard to prove god exists is if you believe that god behaves in ways that are indistinguishable from no god exisiting at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2011, 11:29 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,609,408 times
Reputation: 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This thread is the result of a conversation I been having with Nozzferrahhtoo in another thread.


the question is can we theists put foth proof or evidence that would be acceptable to an Atheist. I personally doubt we could put up measurable replicable proof as God(swt) is not part of the physical realm and not measurable by physical means.


However, I believe we can present evidence. Please enter what you consider evidence of God(swt) and why.

I will be lazy and begin with the most obvious. That being the fact that matter exists. I can only see a few reason why matter exists.


1. The spontaneous creation of matter is the natural result of nothing.


2. Matter has always existed, it is eternal


3. It was created by a being who exists outside the Physical universe.


In my opinion 3 makes the most sense and I submit that as evidence for the existence of God(swt)

Even in this argument, you are only arguing that a God may have existed at one time, not that he still currently exists today. If there existed a god powerful enough to create the big bang, and yet he has done nothing since then, one could argue that he died in the explosion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top