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Old 10-10-2011, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Also the Qur'an is the only Arabic that is understood by all Arab speakers . there are many dialects of Arabic and most can not be understood outside the speakers of the same dialect. For example I speak the Darija of Morocco and Algeria. I can not understand a single word of the spoken Egyptian dialect.
There is a perfectly good naturalistic explanation for that -- the Arab world is Muslim, so it makes sense that they would base standard Arabic on the Koran.
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:53 PM
 
Location: OKC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is what I meant.

The Best Arabic poems are not/were not written in Arabic (ie Omar Khayyam) but in Farsi. farsi is often mistaken for Arabic as most speakers of it are Muslim. But Farsi is more closely related to English and German and has very little resemblance to Arabic, except Farsi has borrowed a few Arabic words.

Arabic in prose sounds very much like a camel coughing up a hair ball. to make words rhyme in Arabic you have to alter the endings on them to rhyme, but this will change the gender, tense, possessive tense etc.

Also the Qur'an is the only Arabic that is understood by all Arab speakers . there are many dialects of Arabic and most can not be understood outside the speakers of the same dialect. For example I speak the Darija of Morocco and Algeria. I can not understand a single word of the spoken Egyptian dialect.

Every othter source I've researched on the internet conflicts with what you have said. It indicates that rhyming poetry is rather common in Arabic.

The Koran challenge I've read is much narrower then what you've stated. It includes rhyming as an element, but there are several other caveats beyond just making 2 sentences that rhyme and make rational sense.

It would be very odd indeed for a complete language to completely exclude the possability of having two cogent senses that by pure coincidence happened to rhyme. If what you say is true, it would be the Arabic langauges miraculous ability to prevent rhymes that is more improbable than the Korans ability to make rhymes.
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
There is a perfectly good naturalistic explanation for that -- the Arab world is Muslim, so it makes sense that they would base standard Arabic on the Koran.
The only Arabic based on the Qur'an are the Saudi, Yemeni and Egyptian Dialects. The Yemeni dialect is the closest to the tajweed of the Qur'an. However the Egyptian speakers are often the best for teaching Qur'anic Arabic.

The Saudi Arabic is what is usually meant by the Standard Arabic and it is written usually in the Naskh Script, the Qur'an was nearly always written in the Thuluth script although now since most are done on printing presses the Naskh Script is the most common.
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
Intellectual atheists only accept that which can be weighed and measured in the lab.
False. I am willing to accept any argument, evidence, data OR Reasons to think there is a god if only there were some on offer that I could discuss, explore and evaluate. Nothing to do with just "labs". The issue is not what I am willing to accept. The issue is what is on OFFER. Which is, alas: Nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Only if you believe it is possible for a Human to write anything comparable with the Qur'an.
And I do. I think humans in general are not as capable as SOME humans as individuals. We have had artists, savants, scientists, philosophers and more who have and thankfully often still do, far excel the abilities of "normal" human beings. One wishes that more were. One also wonders would the world become bored with such wonders if there were too many of them.

However beauty or not, far in advance of the average human or not, great works are just evidence of great people. Not of magical evidence devoid invisible beings.
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Every othter source I've researched on the internet conflicts with what you have said. It indicates that rhyming poetry is rather common in Arabic.

The Koran challenge I've read is much narrower then what you've stated. It includes rhyming as an element, but there are several other caveats beyond just making 2 sentences that rhyme and make rational sense.

It would be very odd indeed for a complete language to completely exclude the possability of having two cogent senses that by pure coincidence happened to rhyme. If what you say is true, it would be the Arabic langauges miraculous ability to prevent rhymes that is more improbable than the Korans ability to make rhymes.
I will agree that when translated into english there are some outstanding and beautiful Arabic Poems. However, when listened to in Arabic, the sounds will grate your ear drums. Come across sounding like a Camel with asthma trying to cough up a hair ball.

Let me see if I can find an actual Arabic poem on Youtube:
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Metromess
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agnostic soldier: Astronomers are scientists, and they haven't yet succeeded in dragging a star into a lab and weighing it. Not everything can be weighed and measured in a lab, even though its existence is obvious (unlike that of a god).
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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REGARDING POST #36 ABOVE

A typical Short Arabic Poem



A very short Sura from the Qur'an with proper pronunciation

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Old 10-10-2011, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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I don't speak Arabic, so I'm not sure if I can comment intelligently on this matter. However, as a non-Arabic speaker, I think that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" . . . I found the first poem beautiful to listen to, even though I don't understand a word. The second video was sung, which makes an obvious difference on the esthetic sound quality!

I still don't see how this gives evidence that Allah exists. There is a naturalistic explanation for the sound of these poems / Suras, no god necessary.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
I don't speak Arabic, so I'm not sure if I can comment intelligently on this matter. However, as a non-Arabic speaker, I think that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" . . . I found the first poem beautiful to listen to, even though I don't understand a word. The second video was sung, which makes an obvious difference on the esthetic sound quality!

I still don't see how this gives evidence that Allah exists. There is a naturalistic explanation for the sound of these poems / Suras, no god necessary.
there can be and usually is a naturalistic explanation for every event. But that does not mean that it is the correct explanation. But, I do accept it as a possibility.

I had never heard of the Qur'anic challenge until after I accepted Islam. However because of my ancestry.(My family spoke different languages, I had to learn 3 languages to speak with my closest relatives) linguistics has long been a study of mine.

Arabic was the 4th language I studied, I jumped at the chance to study it at the University of Rabat when I was stationed in Morocco. I picked up the Qur'an as a study guide of the language and not for it's religious content. Even then I was amazed at the differences between Qur'anic and spoken Arabic.

There is no written music or notes in the Qur'an each word carries a unique tone and it is the interplay of the words that give it it's musical quality. Yet, it all reads as logical prose. I often compare it to writing the US constitution, but having it sound like the William Tell overture when read.
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I'll Start Backwards. Muslims use a title after the names of those we respect and also because in Arabic there are no capital letters. To many if not most of us Muslims God is indistinguishable from god. We therefore write Subhanna Wa Ta'Ala (The greatest one with no partners, equals or progeny) abbreviated as (swt) after God as both a title of respect and to distinguish God from god.

At the moment I am only going to attempt to keep this thread on topic, being a debate of evidence and/or proof of the existence of God(swt)
Well, there is no evidence, for or against. It's all belief, faith speculation etc.
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