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Old 10-11-2011, 03:26 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,383,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Unless you can consider the effect the invisible being has on humans as being evidence.
Let me put it this way, find me a person who has never had contact with god fearing folk, has never heard of god and if they start to feel the affects of god presence just as Jews, Christians and Muslims, you might have an argument. Might.

The problem with most "believers" is that they have been immersed, figuratively and literally with these stories of gods invisible yet mysterious powers. It is called socialization, brainwashing if you like, so you see, feel, and experience those things that you have been taught to expect to see, feel and experience. The fact that millions, dare I say billions of humans don't is a telling argument in favor of socialization over the actual existence of some supreme being.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,747,589 times
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There are things that defy not only natural laws but even logic:

Free Will
Concepts of Beauty
Desire to produce fictional literature
Cognitive life
Deviant behavior
Altruistic Behavior

There is no logical reasons for any of those to exist and without them man would probably suffer less emotional anguish.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:38 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,383,807 times
Reputation: 14885
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are things that defy not only natural laws but even logic:

Free Will
Concepts of Beauty
Desire to produce fictional literature
Cognitive life
Deviant behavior
Altruistic Behavior

There is no logical reasons for any of those to exist and without them man would probably suffer less emotional anguish.
Oh puleeze Woodrow!

Free will is a necessary biological trait, do we choose to follow path a or path b. Those who are not adapt at making those choices correctly perish. Tis why, generally speaking, humans don't follow the herd and leap off the cliff.

Concepts of beauty are interwoven with procreation.

Desire to produce fictional literature, ask the scribes of the bible.

Cognitive life... see free will.

Altruistic Behavior, a trait exhibited by all social animals.

Deviant behavior... define deviance.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,309,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Let me put it this way, find me a person who has never had contact with god fearing folk, has never heard of god and if they start to feel the affects of god presence just as Jews, Christians and Muslims, you might have an argument. Might.

The problem with most "believers" is that they have been immersed, figuratively and literally with these stories of gods invisible yet mysterious powers. It is called socialization, brainwashing if you like, so you see, feel, and experience those things that you have been taught to expect to see, feel and experience. The fact that millions, dare I say billions of humans don't is a telling argument in favor of socialization over the actual existence of some supreme being.
Exactly. That's why I believed in god for so many years: because I was taught that he existed since I was a little boy (growing up in a Christian culture didn't hurt either). It's all social conditioning; without it, no one would believe in god(s) or the supernatural.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,747,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Let me put it this way, find me a person who has never had contact with god fearing folk, has never heard of god and if they start to feel the affects of god presence just as Jews, Christians and Muslims, you might have an argument. Might.

The problem with most "believers" is that they have been immersed, figuratively and literally with these stories of gods invisible yet mysterious powers. It is called socialization, brainwashing if you like, so you see, feel, and experience those things that you have been taught to expect to see, feel and experience. The fact that millions, dare I say billions of humans don't is a telling argument in favor of socialization over the actual existence of some supreme being.
Except for Antartica I can not think of any continent that does not have some form of organized religion on it. I doubt if it is possible for a person to grow up on earth without contact with people who believe in at least one deity.

While atheism is growing I do not think there is even one city or town that is majority Atheist. I'll concede there may be some in China. But even then you will still find people who worship at least one invisible supreme being

The world is predominately theist although the majority is probably not of any Abrahamic Faith.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:30 PM
 
2,665 posts, read 2,128,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
I am a physicalist. If it is not of the physical world, it does not exist -- that is my position. Why? Because nothing non-physical has ever been demonstrated to exist. Unless you can show hard, physical, scientific evidence that your god is real, I won't believe it.
Like you, I think all human religion is precisely that, and therefore has no real credibility.

But what would you say if it could be proven, or at least demonstrated to a reasonable degree of certainty that the physical world itself did not exist?
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:59 PM
 
1,116 posts, read 1,000,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This thread is the result of a conversation I been having with Nozzferrahhtoo in another thread.


the question is can we theists put foth proof or evidence that would be acceptable to an Atheist. I personally doubt we could put up measurable replicable proof as God(swt) is not part of the physical realm and not measurable by physical means.


However, I believe we can present evidence. Please enter what you consider evidence of God(swt) and why.

I will be lazy and begin with the most obvious. That being the fact that matter exists. I can only see a few reason why matter exists.


1. The spontaneous creation of matter is the natural result of nothing.


2. Matter has always existed, it is eternal


3. It was created by a being who exists outside the Physical universe.


In my opinion 3 makes the most sense and I submit that as evidence for the existence of God(swt)
Ok....so you can't explain "x", so therefore god? Typical god of the gaps. How is not knowing the answer to something, therefore evidence of your god? You're putting the cart before the horse. What is wrong with admitting that you don't have an answer for something? That is the only intellectually honest answer. Even though I don't "know" how matter came about, I obviously don't believe a god created it, because I have not been convinced that a god even exists to have done anything. Prove god exists first, and then I'll give consideration to the claim that "he" created "x".
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,747,589 times
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First off just going off topic for a second. Do you prefer your user name to be read as "Myth Understood" or as "My Thunder Stood" I can see it is a nice play on the word Misunderstood.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mythunderstood View Post
Ok....so you can't explain "x", so therefore god? Typical god of the gaps. How is not knowing the answer to something, therefore evidence of your god? You're putting the cart before the horse. What is wrong with admitting that you don't have an answer for something? That is the only intellectually honest answer. Even though I don't "know" how matter came about, I obviously don't believe a god created it, because I have not been convinced that a god even exists to have done anything. Prove god exists first, and then I'll give consideration to the claim that "he" created "x".
To be honest somewhere in the past 65 post I believe I did state I have no physical proof. This comes down to that which I see as evidence and others do not see as evidence. It is not my place to convince you or anyone else God(swt), I can only state my own reasons for believing.

We will differ in opinion, so be it.
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:34 PM
 
1,116 posts, read 1,000,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
First off just going off topic for a second. Do you prefer your user name to be read as "Myth Understood" or as "My Thunder Stood" I can see it is a nice play on the word Misunderstood.
Myth Understood

Quote:
To be honest somewhere in the past 65 post I believe I did state I have no physical proof. This comes down to that which I see as evidence and others do not see as evidence. It is not my place to convince you or anyone else God(swt), I can only state my own reasons for believing.

We will differ in opinion, so be it.
Well, based on your op, your whole thread is based on presenting evidence for the existence of god that would (could) be acceptable to an atheist:

Quote:
This thread is the result of a conversation I been having with Nozzferrahhtoo in another thread.


the question is can we theists put foth proof or evidence that would be acceptable to an Atheist. I personally doubt we could put up measurable replicable proof as God(swt) is not part of the physical realm and not measurable by physical means.


However, I believe we can present evidence. Please enter what you consider evidence of God(swt) and why.

I will be lazy and begin with the most obvious. That being the fact that matter exists. I can only see a few reason why matter exists.


1. The spontaneous creation of matter is the natural result of nothing.


2. Matter has always existed, it is eternal


3. It was created by a being who exists outside the Physical universe.


In my opinion 3 makes the most sense and I submit that as evidence for the existence of God(swt)
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,309,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DentalFloss View Post
But what would you say if it could be proven, or at least demonstrated to a reasonable degree of certainty that the physical world itself did not exist?
That would be a nonsensical question. The physical world itself obviously exists.
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