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Old 10-12-2011, 04:53 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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So what was the NDE, Blue Hue ? They are always so interesting.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are things that defy not only natural laws but even logic:

Free Will
Concepts of Beauty
Desire to produce fictional literature
Cognitive life
Deviant behavior
Altruistic Behavior

There is no logical reasons for any of those to exist and without them man would probably suffer less emotional anguish.
If I can provide a logical explanations for these, will you renounce your religion? I want to find out how important you feel these are as "proof" of god before I bother with them. If you really find them convincing then disproving them should lead you to question god, at the very least. But if it won't make a dent in your faith, then they're obviously not related to god-belief at all. Which is it?
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
If I can provide a logical explanations for these, will you renounce your religion? I want to find out how important you feel these are as "proof" of god before I bother with them. If you really find them convincing then disproving them should lead you to question god, at the very least. But if it won't make a dent in your faith, then they're obviously not related to god-belief at all. Which is it?
Perhaps you may want to go back and see what my reply was in response to. I think you have arrived at the wrong conclusion about what I meant or was trying to explain, Perhaps I was not very clear. I do acknowledge that at times my replies are not clear.
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Old 10-12-2011, 10:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
So what was the NDE, Blue Hue ? They are always so interesting.
It was interesting because he didn't talk about a tunnel or light at the end . I didn't want to interrupt or say something away from what he said he saw......It seemed as though he was on the floor of the lake and mentioned that afterwords he looked up and saw the hole at the top of the lake and remarked a few times that it looked no bigger than a dime...

he said that he was in a garden that was absolutely unbelievable, total beauty and was wholly in awe while in this garden...like nothing you've ever seen or imagined he says. He kept emphasized the beauty and said he couldn't really compare it to anything . Because he was so intrigued I didn't ask about whether or not he saw people but I think I remember he said something about others ..the whole focus in his recollection seemed to be the experience in this luscious and beautiful garden..he was very sure and had no difficulty in remembering the great effect it had on him since it happened obviously some 55 years ago....there was no loss in the general potency of his experience. He's caucasian ...There was absolutely no bible talk in the little over an hour talking with him...no religion...


Afterwards I thought I'm going to ask a little more from him, next time I see him...which
will happen if hes in the yard where I need to pick up more supplies for this insulation project. He was without question very effected by the experience and this garden......he said that when he came to or something he looked up and saw the hole in the ice and it looked no bigger then a dime...it may have been more like about 80 feet or something and he recalls thinking, if I don't push up perfectly in line with the hole I will never be able to get out....

he says he pushed up....up up up he goes and distinctly remembers an arm gushing through the water and just grabbed him aggressively and pulled him out....he was by himself apparently and there was a guy down the lake or something and saw him go through...
I will talk to him again....it was a really good story to hear first hand and theres just no way he made it up...or even knew what a NDE even was...
the community he lived in at the time was tiny and about 25 miles from the nearest town...a very small town at that..and again...150 miles from any city of note..the lifestyles in those days had nothing to do with watching TV...reading the enquirer or even the newspaper...get the wood in, food ...whatever job. Different life

I'll see him again and were comfortable talking so I'll chat it up with him and wind up asking about if he saw people or something...I'm not pushy so will let nature takes its course on that...I seem to remember something about others in this garden..he was just stuck on the beauty of the garden..more details ...He seemed to remember a good amount of time in the garden itself

edit...this is following the first post I made on this and will help explain some of above

Last edited by Blue Hue; 10-12-2011 at 11:10 AM.. Reason: afterthought
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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There are naturalistic causes to near-death experiences . . . they are caused by trauma, which triggers a hallucinatory dream-like state in the brain. There is nothing supernatural going on, and there is certainly no life after death. It has been scientifically proven that there is no soul, life force, or mind apart from the physical, chemical reactions in the brain. Once you die, that's it. I suspect that religions arose from hallucinatory NDE experiences and the irrational fear of death that most humans possess. People believe in heaven because it sounds more interesting than taking an eternal nap.
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:38 PM
 
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I gotta reply to this baby of a posting.......try sticking your whole arm under ice cold water just from the tap......

then imagine slipping on ice and going through a fishing hole, down, down down until the hole looks as big as a dime....having a hallucination, coming to (like I suppose he got some oxygen or something) and then
having the energy and where with all to see where you are and targeting the fishing hole which now looks no bigger then a dime.....good luck explaining this away with the brain thing...no way. ( don't forget all the cloths and boots for the winter all sogged up with ice water colder then the tap....down at the bottom)

maybe your right on something though, chances are your right about something...maybe some simply phase out like a finished candle, if theres no wax left to burn in self interest,knowledge or whatever, theres no wax left to burn...just like a golf shot, job interview and self confidence...no interest no go. who knows you could be right on target, again, everything is relative... thats one thing we know for sure.

bring up some data on hypo thermo or whatever to back up what your talking about, otherwise its hard to give any worthy attention to a post which is so un-scientific, yet introduces a vague science style suggestion that the interesting story is non-sense with respects to something un-known going on. Ice water related and known physical realities concerning time....

this should be interesting......over to you

Last edited by Blue Hue; 10-12-2011 at 02:50 PM..
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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Your brain doesn't completely stop functioning until up to one hour after you die. I don't mean fall under the ice, I mean become dead (no heartbeat, no breathing, body at room temperature). NDEs are possible up until the time when your brain completely stops functioning, which obviously didn't happen in your friend's case. I know he saw something, but it was a trauma-induced hallucination produced by the brain. That's what near-death experiences are, not supernatural events.

This site talks about NDEs and how they are caused by naturalistic factors:
Debunking Christianity: The Essential Nuttiness of Near-Death Experiences as Evidence for the Supernatural

There is no evidence for the existence of the supernatural. Zero.
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:58 PM
 
912 posts, read 699,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
Your brain doesn't completely stop functioning until up to one hour after you die. I don't mean fall under the ice, I mean become dead (no heartbeat, no breathing, body at room temperature). NDEs are possible up until the time when your brain completely stops functioning, which obviously didn't happen in your friend's case. I know he saw something, but it was a trauma-induced hallucination produced by the brain. That's what near-death experiences are, not supernatural events.

This site talks about NDEs and how they are caused by naturalistic factors:
Debunking Christianity: The Essential Nuttiness of Near-Death Experiences as Evidence for the Supernatural

There is no evidence for the existence of the supernatural. Zero.

Wheres the idea you got with respects to how long the guy was down there at the bottom.?...

plus I know all about the probing in the brain stuff..

Theres simply no way a person can go into this kind of thing as described and reverse the dying process way down at the bottom of an ice cold lake..theres just no way...that MUST be explained before anything

if you don't want to bring forward the real facts with respects to the human body and freezing water...I guess I will have to....I gotta go to work with an appointment so maybe when you get up tom , it will be here...
all the facts which would be in play...theres nothing that can be exclusive when dealing with a possible timeless zone and stepping out of physical life...so no matter what... exclusive idea's of dis-crediting would be peculiar to each event....just thinking....guy in a fire ...zip zip....wheres the brain now? what happened to the hour? so without a doubt quickies aren't going to do it here....I'll try to get this info...its been a drag week

Last edited by Blue Hue; 10-12-2011 at 03:16 PM..
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Old 10-12-2011, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Here
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Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
I used to be a Christian. I was raised in an evangelical fundamentalist home, and was a practicing Christian for much of my life. I've argued in defense of Christianity many times on this forum and elsewhere.

I have come to realize that Christianity is false, and that there is likely no god or higher power. To me, the whole concept of God is absurd. Think about it: an all-powerful being that has existed for all eternity (impossible -- everything must have a beginning), that is omniscient (logically impossible), omnipotent, omnibenevolent, cares about the behavior and personal lives of us little hunks of carbon sitting on some spinning rock rotating around a dim star (one of sextillions of stars in the known universe) in some dark corner of the universe. It is the stuff of fairy tales. Plus, once you add in the antiquated, incorrect, morally deficient and self-contradictory teachings of the Bible or Koran, the concept of a god (especially the Abrahamic God) becomes utterly indefensible. God is like Santa Claus for adults: a feel-good myth that people use to get them through the tough times in life.

I'm not saying "there is no god." Obviously, as a human being I cannot make such a statement. I'm an agnostic, rather than an atheist, because I feel it is epistemologically impossible to prove that there is no god. However, I don't see any evidence for the existence of any gods or supernatural beings, and I think it is highly likely that no such beings exist. The universe's beginning can be explained through purely naturalistic means.

I still have Christian friends who try to convince me that God exists and that Christianity is true. I tried to get myself to believe it, but I just can't do it anymore. It would take undeniable evidence (such as a miracle absolutely unexplainable by naturalistic means) to convince me to believe again. Before you say it, Islam suffers from the same fatal logical, historical, philosophical and moral flaws as Christianity.
I have said several times in this forum that I want there to be a God. I want that reassurance that a "higher power" gives to those who believe in sich things. Unfortunately at this point I need proof. I think that if it were anything other than religion, it would be widely accepted that modern science has essentially disproven the existence of any god. Science has proven that microorganisms are responsible for many illnesses, and not evil spirits. Clinical depression is no longer believed to be a punishment from God. Contrary to early beliefs, lightning is not an expression of God's anger. Of course we go screaming and kicking before we accept many of these scientific advances (as in evolution). Mankind just can't let go of his god(s).

Having gone through that long diatribe, I do believe that there is some chance that some entity of some sort kick-started the existence of the universe. I think the chances of this are tiny, but not zero. However if such a being exists, I think the chances of "it" being the traditional god as seen in the Bible are pretty much zero. My belief in a possible universe-creating entity comes from my personal, very amateur scientific analysis. Whereas the God that silently looks down on earth, judging its people, and assigning afterlife destinations, is a being more of myth or fantasy.
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Old 10-12-2011, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,593,440 times
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Messed this up. See next post.
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