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Old 10-09-2011, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,512,181 times
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This thread is the result of a conversation I been having with Nozzferrahhtoo in another thread.


the question is can we theists put foth proof or evidence that would be acceptable to an Atheist. I personally doubt we could put up measurable replicable proof as God(swt) is not part of the physical realm and not measurable by physical means.


However, I believe we can present evidence. Please enter what you consider evidence of God(swt) and why.

I will be lazy and begin with the most obvious. That being the fact that matter exists. I can only see a few reason why matter exists.


1. The spontaneous creation of matter is the natural result of nothing.


2. Matter has always existed, it is eternal


3. It was created by a being who exists outside the Physical universe.


In my opinion 3 makes the most sense and I submit that as evidence for the existence of God(swt)
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Old 10-09-2011, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,901 posts, read 18,450,622 times
Reputation: 13735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This thread is the result of a conversation I been having with Nozzferrahhtoo in another thread.


the question is can we theists put foth proof or evidence that would be acceptable to an Atheist. I personally doubt we could put up measurable replicable proof as God(swt) is not part of the physical realm and not measurable by physical means.


However, I believe we can present evidence. Please enter what you consider evidence of God(swt) and why.

I will be lazy and begin with the most obvious. That being the fact that matter exists. I can only see a few reason why matter exists.


1. The spontaneous creation of matter is the natural result of nothing.


2. Matter has always existed, it is eternal


3. It was created by a being who exists outside the Physical universe.


In my opinion 3 makes the most sense and I submit that as evidence for the existence of God(swt)

Your only chance is to argue that our world is not reality as we understand it, but a simulation (for lack of a better term) which we misinterpret as *the* reality.

Your god would be in the "real world" directing our simulation with total access to all aspects of the simulation, the ability to move back and forth through any part of the simulation's timeline and the ability to easily intervene at will... which would look like an impossible, total disregard for the laws of physics in our perspective but in reality would be just "hacking" the simulation (which would otherwise normally run in accordance with pre-defined rules, i.e. natural laws).

There would be no magic, a clear logic and a completely indestructible argument.

Now that we've solved that conundrum and accepted that it *might, in theory* be possible...

... somebody explain to me why there are 10 bazillion different gods/religions all with competing dogmas that almost always tend to mirror the cultures which spawn them...
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Old 10-09-2011, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,512,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post

... somebody explain to me why there are 10 bazillion different gods/religions all with competing dogmas that almost always tend to mirror the cultures which spawn them...
At the moment I am only going to reflect on the main part of your replay and just give one possible reason for this last part.

It is because in his mercy God(swt) has sent the same message through Prophets(PBUT) to all nations and People But, us humans have constantly screwed it up and adapted it to our cultures.
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Old 10-09-2011, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,901 posts, read 18,450,622 times
Reputation: 13735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

It is because in his mercy God(swt) has sent the same message through Prophets(PBUT) to all nations and People But, us humans have constantly screwed it up and adapted it to our cultures.
I would argue that god is a big screw-up then. There is no way an all-mighty being could miss the mark that many times.

Anyway, to me there are only 2 logical conclusions:

1. There is no god.

2. God is "hands off" and prefers to see things grow, evolve and change on their own without much intervention. In other words, god wants us to find our own way... which would logically mean there is no 1 way to approach life and spirituality, but also that we are pretty much on our own in a "sink or swim" or "trial by fire" experience. Maybe such a god wouldn't even see any value in the "AI" spawned by the "simulation"...
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,200,454 times
Reputation: 3195
I used to be a Christian. I was raised in an evangelical fundamentalist home, and was a practicing Christian for much of my life. I've argued in defense of Christianity many times on this forum and elsewhere.

I have come to realize that Christianity is false, and that there is likely no god or higher power. To me, the whole concept of God is absurd. Think about it: an all-powerful being that has existed for all eternity (impossible -- everything must have a beginning), that is omniscient (logically impossible), omnipotent, omnibenevolent, cares about the behavior and personal lives of us little hunks of carbon sitting on some spinning rock rotating around a dim star (one of sextillions of stars in the known universe) in some dark corner of the universe. It is the stuff of fairy tales. Plus, once you add in the antiquated, incorrect, morally deficient and self-contradictory teachings of the Bible or Koran, the concept of a god (especially the Abrahamic God) becomes utterly indefensible. God is like Santa Claus for adults: a feel-good myth that people use to get them through the tough times in life.

I'm not saying "there is no god." Obviously, as a human being I cannot make such a statement. I'm an agnostic, rather than an atheist, because I feel it is epistemologically impossible to prove that there is no god. However, I don't see any evidence for the existence of any gods or supernatural beings, and I think it is highly likely that no such beings exist. The universe's beginning can be explained through purely naturalistic means.

I still have Christian friends who try to convince me that God exists and that Christianity is true. I tried to get myself to believe it, but I just can't do it anymore. It would take undeniable evidence (such as a miracle absolutely unexplainable by naturalistic means) to convince me to believe again. Before you say it, Islam suffers from the same fatal logical, historical, philosophical and moral flaws as Christianity.
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,200,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
At the moment I am only going to reflect on the main part of your replay and just give one possible reason for this last part.

It is because in his mercy God(swt) has sent the same message through Prophets(PBUT) to all nations and People But, us humans have constantly screwed it up and adapted it to our cultures.
Why would an all-powerful God use human prophets to spread his message? Wouldn't it be far more effective and unambiguous for God to simply come down and tell us his message himself, or carve it into the moon in every language, or something along those lines? Why have ancient Middle Eastern nomads give prophecies and then write those prophecies down in "holy books" (the Bible, Tanakh, or Koran, depending on your religion) centuries or millenia after the fact? It doesn't make logical sense for an all-powerful entity to operate that way. That's one reason why I reject the possible existence of the Abrahamic God.
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,200,454 times
Reputation: 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

I will be lazy and begin with the most obvious. That being the fact that matter exists. I can only see a few reason why matter exists.


1. The spontaneous creation of matter is the natural result of nothing.


2. Matter has always existed, it is eternal


3. It was created by a being who exists outside the Physical universe.


In my opinion 3 makes the most sense and I submit that as evidence for the existence of God(swt)
Ah, the Kalam argument. It sounds sensible (I believe it's one of the best arguments for theism), but it's unnecessary to explain the existence of the universe. The Big Bang could have happened via a quantum fluctuation in the vacuum of nonexistence (or the multiverse, depending on your views of M-Theory). In either case, the universe would form from nothing by purely naturalistic processes, no supernatural beings required.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:33 AM
 
2,447 posts, read 2,574,458 times
Reputation: 2202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This thread is the result of a conversation I been having with Nozzferrahhtoo in another thread.


the question is can we theists put foth proof or evidence that would be acceptable to an Atheist. I personally doubt we could put up measurable replicable proof as God(swt) is not part of the physical realm and not measurable by physical means.


However, I believe we can present evidence. Please enter what you consider evidence of God(swt) and why.

I will be lazy and begin with the most obvious. That being the fact that matter exists. I can only see a few reason why matter exists.


1. The spontaneous creation of matter is the natural result of nothing.


2. Matter has always existed, it is eternal


3. It was created by a being who exists outside the Physical universe.


In my opinion 3 makes the most sense and I submit that as evidence for the existence of God(swt)
No one knows anything, so this question is pointless. All anyone is offering is what they think they believe 99%, not 100.

We have discovered so much due to science and exploration, so who knows what else we'll discover. Even if we find some ridiculous evidence of god, it will still be science that got us there. Just like it will be science that finds the proof there isn't one. This is obviously speculation and rhetoric, nothing more.

The notion of god is not useful in our society. It's time to move on, people.

Also, what kind of god would this be, anyway? So, assuming whatever this thing is created everything: what is it? Did it just create everything and go away? Or is it intervening in everything? Or is it just intervening in our lives? Or just the lives of Americans? What about the Americans on other planets?

Do you see how asinine this is? Be an adult and simply say you don't know. Stop creating exclusive clubs saying you know what happens when you die and saying you know that this entity doesn't want gay people to get married.

And what the heck is "god (swt)"?
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Old 10-10-2011, 06:15 AM
 
5,463 posts, read 5,782,850 times
Reputation: 1803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This thread is the result of a conversation I been having with Nozzferrahhtoo in another thread.


the question is can we theists put foth proof or evidence that would be acceptable to an Atheist. I personally doubt we could put up measurable replicable proof as God(swt) is not part of the physical realm and not measurable by physical means.
If it doesn't interact with the physical universe it doesn't matter. If it does, it should leave evidence - but you've already admitted that it probably doesn't. Seems like this line of arguing leads to problems for the believer no matter which way they take it.

Quote:
However, I believe we can present evidence. Please enter what you consider evidence of God(swt) and why.
The same kinds of evidence that convince me that earthworms are real. Why is it so easy to prove that they exist and so difficult to prove that your god does? If she were really as important as you claim, it should be the opposite.

Quote:
I will be lazy and begin with the most obvious. That being the fact that matter exists. I can only see a few reason why matter exists.
Your lack of understanding isn't evidence. Neither is your opinion on the matter. Now your reasons for having the opinion might be interesting, should you care to share them.
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Old 10-10-2011, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,512,181 times
Reputation: 7377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aganusn View Post
No one knows anything, so this question is pointless. All anyone is offering is what they think they believe 99%, not 100.

We have discovered so much due to science and exploration, so who knows what else we'll discover. Even if we find some ridiculous evidence of god, it will still be science that got us there. Just like it will be science that finds the proof there isn't one. This is obviously speculation and rhetoric, nothing more.

The notion of god is not useful in our society. It's time to move on, people.

Also, what kind of god would this be, anyway? So, assuming whatever this thing is created everything: what is it? Did it just create everything and go away? Or is it intervening in everything? Or is it just intervening in our lives? Or just the lives of Americans? What about the Americans on other planets?

Do you see how asinine this is? Be an adult and simply say you don't know. Stop creating exclusive clubs saying you know what happens when you die and saying you know that this entity doesn't want gay people to get married.

And what the heck is "god (swt)"?
I'll Start Backwards. Muslims use a title after the names of those we respect and also because in Arabic there are no capital letters. To many if not most of us Muslims God is indistinguishable from god. We therefore write Subhanna Wa Ta'Ala (The greatest one with no partners, equals or progeny) abbreviated as (swt) after God as both a title of respect and to distinguish God from god.

At the moment I am only going to attempt to keep this thread on topic, being a debate of evidence and/or proof of the existence of God(swt)
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