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Old 10-18-2011, 09:52 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,164,133 times
Reputation: 738

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Might I ask what she said? Perhaps she chastised you for being so gullible?
Let's not be hasty, now, WhipperSnapper 88....
I smell the oppurtunity of money to be made!

Ahem....
If anyone would like to communicate with their loved dead ones, please contact me via Private Message, with your credit card ready or vis Paypal, and I shall be happy to relay any messages they may have for you.

Perhaps you are searching for where they hid their money before their untimely death?
Perhaps they have advice on how to run the family company you are quickly running straight into the ground?
Perhaps you require their blessing on a marriage or other union?
Perhaps you are lost and wandering, and need the authoritarian hand of a parent to tell you what to do?
Perhaps you're worried that they are living an afterlife of unbearable torment and hellfire - let's find out! I'll ask them!

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Old 10-18-2011, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,376,803 times
Reputation: 7232
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Let's not be hasty, now, WhipperSnapper 88....
I smell the oppurtunity of money to be made!

Ahem....
If anyone would like to communicate with their loved dead ones, please contact me via Private Message, with your credit card ready or vis Paypal, and I shall be happy to relay any messages they may have for you.

Perhaps you are searching for where they hid their money before their untimely death?
Perhaps they have advice on how to run the family company you are quickly running straight into the ground?
Perhaps you require their blessing on a marriage or other union?
Perhaps you are lost and wandering, and need the authoritarian hand of a parent to tell you what to do?
Perhaps you're worried that they are living an afterlife of unbearable torment and hellfire - let's find out! I'll ask them!

I CAN HELP! That's right, folks - I specialize in talking to the deceased, and can even send their helpful hints and messages via email - we are not living in the dark ages, after all! My rates are guaranteed to be competitive, and no longer do you have to sit in an unhealthy, possibly unsanitary gypsy's hut or a psychic's nicely vacuumed home with the smell of the last grieving customer still lingering in the air. Efficiency is my belief, and my motto is .... I'm sorry, I don't have a motto. I just take care of business. And THAT means quality.
haha yes well, I was going to ask him how much he was charged to "speak to his mother" but decided to go with what I did.
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Old 10-18-2011, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,376,803 times
Reputation: 7232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
That was the main point of my reply in post #76 indeed. The poster considered that animals are "afraid to die" and I contended this might not be as clear cut as one thinks. They likely have very little concept of death.

Their instinctive reactions to avoiding injury in themselves or others in their group, or behavior abnormalities caused by proximity to such injury, is not to be automatically extrapolated to the assumption that they have any concept or fear of death itself. Maybe some of the "higher" (for want of a better word I use that crass one) animals do on some levels, but the vast vast majority of animal life on this planet likely does not.
I don't know NOZZ, you may be right that the higher animals do only but I really do think animals have some sort of concept of death. There are even some animals that right before they die, they go off into the woods to be alone when it happens. Why would they do this if they didn't klnow they were about to die?
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:51 PM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,083,051 times
Reputation: 2972
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
I don't know NOZZ, you may be right that the higher animals do only but I really do think animals have some sort of concept of death.
I am sure you are, but the question for me is not what you think, but if there is any good reason for thinking it myself. Thus far all I have heard is one anecdote based around the unusual behaviour of animals in the presence of firearms and injuries to one of their own. Not something I am willing to even begin to extrapolate to the form of "anamalistic pathetic fallacy" that you wish to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
There are even some animals that right before they die, they go off into the woods to be alone when it happens. Why would they do this if they didn't klnow they were about to die?
Many animals do things without knowing why or even requiring a concept of why. Salmon for example travel huge distances against massive odds.... and likely have no idea that they are doing it to copulate and reproduce at the end. They merely do what they are programmed to do.

Take beavers for another example. They build dams. The question is do they have any concept of what they are doing or what the end result will be, or do they just do what they do without a concept of why? The answer is the latter as evidenced by the fact that beavers in captivity, where there is no water or wood, actually go through the preprogrammed motions of dam building anyway. They do so despite not having wood or water. If they had any concept of why they do what they do... why would they continue to do it in the absence of materials, water or... more importantly... results of any kind?? The answer is.... like your animals going off to die.... that many animals do what they do from instinct without any concept of why they are doing it.

So no, I would not attribute the kinds of thinking that you do merely because animals follow preprogrammed impulses and those impulses compel you to ascribe human thinking to them. I can at least respect your error however. When trying to explain the actions of animals we tend to think as humans... that being what we are.... and so we quite often come to erroneous conclusions based on this bias.
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,376,803 times
Reputation: 7232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I am sure you are, but the question for me is not what you think, but if there is any good reason for thinking it myself. Thus far all I have heard is one anecdote based around the unusual behaviour of animals in the presence of firearms and injuries to one of their own. Not something I am willing to even begin to extrapolate to the form of "anamalistic pathetic fallacy" that you wish to.



Many animals do things without knowing why or even requiring a concept of why. Salmon for example travel huge distances against massive odds.... and likely have no idea that they are doing it to copulate and reproduce at the end. They merely do what they are programmed to do.

Take beavers for another example. They build dams. The question is do they have any concept of what they are doing or what the end result will be, or do they just do what they do without a concept of why? The answer is the latter as evidenced by the fact that beavers in captivity, where there is no water or wood, actually go through the preprogrammed motions of dam building anyway. They do so despite not having wood or water. If they had any concept of why they do what they do... why would they continue to do it in the absence of materials, water or... more importantly... results of any kind?? The answer is.... like your animals going off to die.... that many animals do what they do from instinct without any concept of why they are doing it.

So no, I would not attribute the kinds of thinking that you do merely because animals follow preprogrammed impulses and those impulses compel you to ascribe human thinking to them. I can at least respect your error however. When trying to explain the actions of animals we tend to think as humans... that being what we are.... and so we quite often come to erroneous conclusions based on this bias.
Well so be it then, not something I find worth arguing over. Maybe animals have a concept of their own death, and maybe they dont. What does it really matter in the end?
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,376,803 times
Reputation: 7232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I am sure you are, but the question for me is not what you think, but if there is any good reason for thinking it myself. Thus far all I have heard is one anecdote based around the unusual behaviour of animals in the presence of firearms and injuries to one of their own. Not something I am willing to even begin to extrapolate to the form of "anamalistic pathetic fallacy" that you wish to.



Many animals do things without knowing why or even requiring a concept of why. Salmon for example travel huge distances against massive odds.... and likely have no idea that they are doing it to copulate and reproduce at the end. They merely do what they are programmed to do.

Take beavers for another example. They build dams. The question is do they have any concept of what they are doing or what the end result will be, or do they just do what they do without a concept of why? The answer is the latter as evidenced by the fact that beavers in captivity, where there is no water or wood, actually go through the preprogrammed motions of dam building anyway. They do so despite not having wood or water. If they had any concept of why they do what they do... why would they continue to do it in the absence of materials, water or... more importantly... results of any kind?? The answer is.... like your animals going off to die.... that many animals do what they do from instinct without any concept of why they are doing it.

So no, I would not attribute the kinds of thinking that you do merely because animals follow preprogrammed impulses and those impulses compel you to ascribe human thinking to them. I can at least respect your error however. When trying to explain the actions of animals we tend to think as humans... that being what we are.... and so we quite often come to erroneous conclusions based on this bias.
Well so be it then, not something I find worth arguing over. Maybe animals have a concept of their own death, and maybe they dont. What does it really matter in the end?

{ and I wasn't using my "one anecdote based around the unusual behaviour of animals in the presence of firearms and injuries to one of their own" as proof that they do or that they don't, just maybe some evidence that they do and feul for the conversation was my intent with this }
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Old 10-19-2011, 02:00 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,083,051 times
Reputation: 2972
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Well so be it then, not something I find worth arguing over. Maybe animals have a concept of their own death, and maybe they dont. What does it really matter in the end?
Well it was you that contested my statement in the first place so as to its subjective importance to you... only you can answer that. As for me I find it interesting in it's own right... as well as relevant to the point of the person to whom I was actually replying when you joined in.

Though apparently it "matters" enough for you to have replied to me with two posts in a row on the subject above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
and I wasn't using my "one anecdote based around the unusual behaviour of animals
That is all I saw, but no matter. Suffice to say that animals have many complex behaviors for which they require no concept of their goal or reasons in order to perform. Compared to come of those behaviors.... salmon mating habits, bird nest building, beaver dam creation.... the behavior of wandering off to die is vastly simpler.

And the evolutionary benefits for doing so are pretty easy to imagine. Wandering off to die likely has major benefits on the survival level of ones genes.
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,376,803 times
Reputation: 7232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Well it was you that contested my statement in the first place so as to its subjective importance to you... only you can answer that. As for me I find it interesting in it's own right... as well as relevant to the point of the person to whom I was actually replying when you joined in.

Though apparently it "matters" enough for you to have replied to me with two posts in a row on the subject above[/


That is all I saw, but no matter. Suffice to say that animals have many complex behaviors for which they require no concept of their goal or reasons in order to perform. Compared to come of those behaviors.... salmon mating habits, bird nest building, beaver dam creation.... the behavior of wandering off to die is vastly simpler.

And the evolutionary benefits for doing so are pretty easy to imagine. Wandering off to die likely has major benefits on the survival level of ones genes.
It always has to be an argumentative debate with some of you people doesn't it? Can't we ever just have a freindly flow of thoughts and Ideas here on R&P without worrying about who wins, who loses, who's right and who's wrong? Apparently not.

It wasn't that "important" to me NOZZ, I was just having a civil conversation with you, but since you want to bring out the snark, have it your way.

Last edited by WhipperSnapper 88; 10-19-2011 at 01:46 PM..
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Old 10-19-2011, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,099 posts, read 10,679,327 times
Reputation: 13472
I don't.

I also don't worry about it. I know that when I die that will be the end of my existence and experience, so I don't see anything to worry about.
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:38 PM
 
7,811 posts, read 5,083,051 times
Reputation: 2972
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
It always has to be an argumentative debate with some of you people doesn't it? Can't we ever just have a freindly flow of thoughts and Ideas here on R&P without worrying about who wins, who loses, who's right and who's wrong? Apparently not.
I freely admit that for me coming here to a DISCUSSION forum is about winning and losing. I would never lie and pretend otherwise. However if you think it is all about winning for me then you have got me more wrong than you could possibly no.

Despite my.... what was the word someone used about me recently bear with me while I look this up on another forum..... yes..... Zealous defense of my point of view... my intention on forums is actually to be wrong. Sounds crazy? Let me explain the because if you understand the next paragraph youll understand me more than most people ever have....

I recognise no one is perfect, least of all me. That means that at any one point in time I am wrong about many things. The fact is I do not know which things these are. The reason I come on to forums is not to prove myself right, or the winner.... but to use other people... yes use, I do not apologise for this.... to help find out where I am wrong.

And I have been wrong many times on forums and I have been grateful for that because if you are truly interested in pursuing an intellectual life then you NEED people to show you where you are wrong.

I rejoice in moments of realising "Oh yes! I see it now! I was so wrong there!". It is one of the best feelings in the world. It just has not happened on THIS thread is all. The "snark" however (new word for me actually).... is all yours.

To bring this post back on topic though, to keep the moderators happy and me too to be honest.... contemplating death is one way to focus the mind on this wonderful pursuit of not just gaining knowledge, but finding out where you are wrong and shedding "bad" knowledge. We only have a limited time to do it, and we will never attain perfection... but that will never mean perfection is not a worth goal to pursue. Not all goals have to be goals we can actually attain you know.
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