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Old 10-18-2011, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Metromess
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How does not being aware of all the autonomic processes going on within one's body (which is impossible by definition) make one a slave to illusion? Connecting all this to the existence of a god is highly suspect. One might even say 'illusory'.
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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We thrive on ILLUSION!
Yes, because we see through a glass darkly in this life. Illusion could also be called ignorance or imperfect understanding.
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by catman View Post
How does not being aware of all the autonomic processes going on within one's body (which is impossible by definition) make one a slave to illusion?
Yes it is impossible to always be aware of the physiology constantly processing throughout one's body. That's my point... there is reality even within us that we are mostly unaware of, yet some pretend that "only that strange group over there" is illusional - when we all are - because we pick & choose what we focus on to the exclusion of much of reality.

Quote:
Connecting all this to the existence of a god is highly suspect. One might even say 'illusory'.
Catman, remember I don't define God how you & many Theists & Athiests do. I define God more as "the force" in Star Wars. (There is a real force... black (invisible) energy & matter makes up & permeates 95% of the universe.) We know that genes in themselves do nothing unless turned on or off by regulatory proteins... which are turned on or off by environmental signals. Although long ago, we realized the universe & creation is more complex than Newtonian laws taught, the medical industry (& maybe some religions too) thrive on the same old illusion that discounts ENERGY that actually moves the "machines." As Hippocrates said, about 2,400 years ago, "Natural forces within us are the true healers of disease."

So, to me EVERYONE - Athiest, Theist, etc... actively believes in & pursues what they think is best... We are living energy that energizes & is energized by other energies. This energy is LOVE, which is GOD. Not the sappy love, but the love that strives for what's best, through trial & error/faith - through distinguishing dysfunctional illusions from functional illusions.
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Old 10-18-2011, 04:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
Yes, because we see through a glass darkly in this life. Illusion could also be called ignorance or imperfect understanding.
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
I think of that scripture when I consider spiritual experiences.

I've heard that the root of evil is ignor-ance. It seems like there is a balance between focusing on practical, logical matters & on spiritual, intuitive matters. The easiest way to think is to conclude - then it's done (or so we think). But if we want to have the most joy, we'll expand our awareness, which also can be painful.
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Metromess
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SuperSoul: I don't see how an atheist is "illusional" simply because he cannot be aware of all the activity going on within his body. I'm aware that I can't be aware of all of it in detail, although I know it is happening. That doesn't make me "illusional".

I too was briefly of the opinion that "The Force" was really IT. I recall walking out of a theater 34 years ago saying that to myself! I think I was in awe of the special effects, soundtrack, etc. as much as anything. Then I noted in one of the later installments (might have been a "prequel", but it was still made later) how the location of "The Force" was supposedly within the mitochondria. I had already lost faith in the reality of "The Force" by then, but that really ruined it for me. The black "Dark Matter" and theoretical "Dark Energy" can hardly be said to verify "The Force". You state that God=Love. Why not just forget about the God and believe in the Love?
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:28 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
I don't agree with you....we do not all thrive on illusions....I am a realist, not an illusionist...I do not "coast on lies", nor "swim in deceits", nor "thrive on amoral cost benefit decisions"....not at all...not at all.
So you don't believe in the actual existence of justice or equality and truly accept that you don't exist as a continuing entity? (I think all cells are recycled every seven years and I think it's been discovered the brain itself changes) Or do you think you can show justice and equality actually exist and that you're continuous?

And what about survival? Why does your life have any more value than anyone else? Can you prove that you do more good living than you would do as a dead body harvested for organs? Or mind. Do you accept your brain is just a neurochemical machine and that a person could simply "throw a switch" and make you something else? That there is no solidity to your existence or mine?

If you do, wow I admit I find that weird.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:56 AM
 
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Are justice and equality an illusion?...more than not..But that doesn't mean I have to believe in that illusion....I am an entity now....certainly not continuous...In no way do I believe my life has more value than anyone elses....I can certainly hope that what I do while my physical body is able is something that is good and valuable....as for when I'm dead...I'll not be DOING anything...though if others can do good harvesting my organs...they're welcome to them....my existence now IS a fact...not an illusion(misleading appearance,something mistakenly or falsly believed to be true)
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by catman View Post
SuperSoul: I don't see how an atheist is "illusional" simply because he cannot be aware of all the activity going on within his body.
Not just within your body, but your awareness is just a tiny tiny bit compared to what there is to be aware about. Pretending you know & understand it all, or that anybody is able to, is illusional. We all can't help but think illusionally - but the whole point of living is to learn to choose functional illusions over dysfunctional illusions.
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
Are justice and equality an illusion?...more than not..But that doesn't mean I have to believe in that illusion....I am an entity now....certainly not continuous...In no way do I believe my life has more value than anyone elses....I can certainly hope that what I do while my physical body is able is something that is good and valuable....as for when I'm dead...I'll not be DOING anything...though if others can do good harvesting my organs...they're welcome to them....my existence now IS a fact...not an illusion(misleading appearance,something mistakenly or falsly believed to be true)
Sure, it's a nice ideal to consider other life as equal in value with us. But when it comes to action - that's not the case. If it were, we'd distribute everything we own, but the bare minimum to others, to even out the "value" of everyone. Life around the world is extremely unfair & what are we doing about it? The fact is that most people don't want to think about it, much less do anything. Some believe that evil is ignor-ance. And maybe ignoring sometimes causes harm, but we can't help but ignore! We need illusions to get us through, to motivate us.

Who knows what will happen after death? It's up to your imagination - why not choose an inspiring illusion over a depressing one?
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:11 PM
 
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What you say makes sense SuperSoul....I just don't like the way you keep saying "we"....I think I'd rather be ignorant (though I hope I'm not)rather than the bigger "evil" of presumption....some of us are very aware of the fact that life can be very "unfair", and are doing everything WE possibly can to alleviate the many injustices..... and suffering... around us.
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