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Old 10-14-2011, 06:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Why bother with a body... or even the man himself. The gospels were first written decades after the fact and story has only gotten larger over the centuries.
This. You can even see the evolution of the stories in the gospels themselves. The oldest gospel Mark is both the shortest and the oldest versions end with the Marys finding an empty tomb - no resurrection or second coming. Later revisions of the story add Jesus returning after his death. The other synoptic gospels build on Mark and expand the theme. John is written even later and has a much more magical view of Jesus, implying the myth continued to grow up around him as the early Christian church developed for another generation.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
It doesn't matter about religion (that's a red herring). . . his point was that people with blind devotion to someone can hallucinate seeing that person after his or her death, especially when there is an alternative to believing the person died (like in Elvis' case and my Jesus hypothesis).

It happened with Elvis, and it happened with Jesus. No resurrection necessary.
Your point is well taken; however, the gospels make it clear Jesus appeared to numerous people at the same time. Are you telling me all of these people happened to hallucinate at the same moment? That would make an interesting case study for a psychologist, wouldn't it?
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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The gospels could have embellished or fabricated the story, or yes, it could be a mass hallucination. Both of these scenarios are far more likely than someone actually rising from the dead.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
I've read NT Wright. My explanation accounts for the rise of Christianity, because, under my hypothesis, John and Peter really did believe that Jesus rose from the dead. They didn't know the unknown person who stole the body. They didn't know the body was stolen at all.
All the pharisees and unbelievers had to do back then is prove the body was stolen, and then the resurrection would have been exposed. That would have been very easy to do. Under guard of soldiers, and considering the stakes IF Jesus' body was stolen away, it seems to me it would be difficult for someone to quietly slip in, take the body, and then deceive the Jews while also trumping the Pharisees and Romans.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
All the pharisees and unbelievers had to do back then is prove the body was stolen, and then the resurrection would have been exposed. That would have been very easy to do. Under guard of soldiers, and considering the stakes IF Jesus' body was stolen away, it seems to me it would be difficult for someone to quietly slip in, take the body, and then deceive the Jews while also trumping the Pharisees and Romans.
There was no guard around the tomb. Read my earlier posts.

Also, under my view, the Pharisees didn't steal the body . . . some unknown Jewish activist did. Probably a follower of Jesus who was more interested in Israel's political state than the spiritual message of Jesus. The thief could have cremated or otherwise destroyed the body, leaving behind no physical evidence for the Pharisees to produce.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
The gospels could have embellished or fabricated the story, or yes, it could be a mass hallucination. Both of these scenarios are far more likely than someone actually rising from the dead.

Right, but I am replying within the context of your post. You brought the gospels into the discussion as a source, so it is fair game. If you are going to simply dismiss what I am using as stories, then there is no point in discussing this topic.

What is the point of reading any historic document? We might as well state everything is rigged, and is fabricated, and thus the concept of history is vague at best... then you would be a deconstructionist. The Bible is vastly superior in terms of manuscripts and textual reliability when compared to any other ancient book or document. What is always curious to me is how historians use the writings of Caesar and make it historical fact regarding his travels in Gaul... no one ever brings that into question, yet in terms of historical reliability, the numbers are heavily stacked in favor of the New Testament.

I'd caution you to be careful with the odds game. Just because something is unlikely does not mean it is false. If that is the way you approach things in life, you will be surprised often.
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:00 PM
 
118 posts, read 93,943 times
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Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
That is far from the best explanation.

First of all, your explanation would require a personal god, which has not been demonstrated to exist, and in fact, has extremely strong evidence against its existence. Secondly, people do NOT rise from the dead, however, mythology is replete with dying and rising figures.

As the apostles were uneducated ancients, they probably did accept the mythological belief of resurrection. However, in 2011, we know that resurrection is impossible, the supernatural is not real, and god(s) probably does not exist. I would accept any naturalistic explanation -- no matter how improbable -- over the resurrection, unless you can provide indisputable, extraordinary evidence that a resurrection occurred. Circumstantial evidence just doesn't cut it.
Northstar, you are opening up an entirely different can of worms. You're right though, people do not typically rise from the dead. At least that is something we can agree on...

Additionally, your claim in the second paragraph is AWFULLY presumptious, and I think is has a strong dose of Enlightenment arrogance. We are so sophisticated in 2011... we still don't have any answers to the biggest and most important questions in life, we are killing each other more often and the more "answers" we find, the more questions we generate. Be careful what you view as progress... the apostles were not stupid. you claim you studied NT Wright... he addresses your statements very thoroughly, and I recommend you re read his material.

Apostles UNDERSTOOD the concept of resurrection. They also understood that it is not something that is supposed to happen when just another person claiming to be Christ is crucified, as was common in that time. You do not operate with the same standard... you attack the bible and claim they are fabrications and stories, yet it is sheer and utter speculation that the poor ancients known as the apostles didn't know any better, and thus accepted the resurrection because of their simple nature.
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,202,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
Right, but I am replying within the context of your post. You brought the gospels into the discussion as a source, so it is fair game. If you are going to simply dismiss what I am using as stories, then there is no point in discussing this topic.
I'm not dismissing them, but I am rightly skeptical of them. The writers of the gospels had an agenda to push. That alone makes them suspect as witnesses. Not to mention the copious amount of supernatural material found in the gospels, when all indications show the supernatural doesn't exist.

Quote:
What is the point of reading any historic document? We might as well state everything is rigged, and is fabricated, and thus the concept of history is vague at best... then you would be a deconstructionist.
I'm skeptical of all historical documents that aim to push an agenda, not just the Bible.

Quote:
The Bible is vastly superior in terms of manuscripts and textual reliability when compared to any other ancient book or document.
That is just evangelical Christian dogma with no basis in reality. There is no evidence that the Bible is more reliable than ALL OTHER historical documents, and in fact, plenty of evidence showing the opposite is true.

Quote:
What is always curious to me is how historians use the writings of Caesar and make it historical fact regarding his travels in Gaul... no one ever brings that into question, yet in terms of historical reliability, the numbers are heavily stacked in favor of the New Testament.
The reason for this is that the New Testament is stuffed full of impossible miraculous and supernatural material. If that wasn't there, it would probably be seen as more reliable.

Quote:
I'd caution you to be careful with the odds game. Just because something is unlikely does not mean it is false. If that is the way you approach things in life, you will be surprised often.
The probability of a resurrection is .000 = 0. The reason why it is zero is because resurrections don't occur in nature, in fact, they are impossible under natural premises. Since god or the supernatural has not been demonstrated to exist, any reasonable person would assume that they do not exist unless provided with convincing evidence to the contrary.
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,202,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
Northstar, you are opening up an entirely different can of worms. You're right though, people do not typically rise from the dead. At least that is something we can agree on...

Additionally, your claim in the second paragraph is AWFULLY presumptious, and I think is has a strong dose of Enlightenment arrogance. We are so sophisticated in 2011... we still don't have any answers to the biggest and most important questions in life, we are killing each other more often and the more "answers" we find, the more questions we generate. Be careful what you view as progress... the apostles were not stupid. you claim you studied NT Wright... he addresses your statements very thoroughly, and I recommend you re read his material.
I never said the apostles were stupid, I said they were uneducated. Big difference. They were, for the most part, uneducated. Most were probably illiterate and had no formal schooling. People with low levels of education, even today, tend to hold false and strange beliefs. You can see that in impoverished inner-city neighborhoods and rural enclaves where education is not valued.

I'll admit that Paul is an exception to the above, but his experience can be explained through a condition known as Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (TLE).
St Paul converted by epileptic fit, suggests BBC - Telegraph

Quote:
Apostles UNDERSTOOD the concept of resurrection. They also understood that it is not something that is supposed to happen when just another person claiming to be Christ is crucified, as was common in that time. You do not operate with the same standard... you attack the bible and claim they are fabrications and stories, yet it is sheer and utter speculation that the poor ancients known as the apostles didn't know any better, and thus accepted the resurrection because of their simple nature.
For me to accept this, you would first have to demonstrate that your god exists. Right now, there is no evidence outside of Christian apologetics circles that he exists. Remember, I used to be an evangelical Christian. I tried extremely hard to hold on to my faith before finally letting it go because there was no evidence to support it. I'm not some anti-Christian attacking "fundies," I'm someone who has left the religion of my upbringing because I have become convinced that it just isn't true.
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:46 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
6,907 posts, read 4,300,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
All the pharisees and unbelievers had to do back then is prove the body was stolen, and then the resurrection would have been exposed. That would have been very easy to do. Under guard of soldiers, and considering the stakes IF Jesus' body was stolen away, it seems to me it would be difficult for someone to quietly slip in, take the body, and then deceive the Jews while also trumping the Pharisees and Romans.
I'm not going to trust them, just like I don't trust people who see ghosts and collaborate each other's stories. Nor do I trust the people at the Salem "wise-women" trials. These cults can collaborate their stories all they like.... MIA is MIA.
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