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Old 10-13-2011, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,984 posts, read 13,382,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
Yes ancient, and tell me... what major world relgion owes its origins to Elvis? How many people have suffered horrible deaths because of their belief in Elvis? Your post is a perfect example of the idea that with statistics... one can "prove" anything.
It doesn't matter about religion (that's a red herring). . . his point was that people with blind devotion to someone can hallucinate seeing that person after his or her death, especially when there is an alternative to believing the person died (like in Elvis' case and my Jesus hypothesis).

It happened with Elvis, and it happened with Jesus. No resurrection necessary.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgnostic View Post
Christ was resurrected for all, for All, for then a greater all. Not All can believe it. Who does and doesn't believe it changed from time to time.
I used to believe in Christianity (I was raised fundamentalist evangelical), but abandoned the belief when I realize how absurd it was to accept something as outlandish as religion without strong evidence.

I would gladly believe if you could produce evidence that proves Christ was resurrected. It can't just be the typical Christian apologetic explanations, it needs to be extraordinary evidence, because a resurrection is an extraordinary claim. As Dawkins said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Until you produce such evidence, I won't believe.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,331 posts, read 2,834,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
Exactly. We're also assuming we understand how the Jews perceived ressurection. I HIGHLY recommend to everyone a study of NT Wright. Essentially, having someone claim to be the Christ and gathering together a following was not unusual in those days... and it typically ended with the death of the leader. Because fo this, Peter, John, etc. KNEW that if Jesus died, that was it. They never thought of the possiblity of a resurrected Christ, because exprience showed them that whenever the leader was killed, the followers disbanded.

But we see a very different thing here, don't we? Not only did his followers stay put... it literally exploded in growth, against all odds. Paul also converted, etc. It seems to me the best explanation for these events is that Christ literally was resurrected.

For the concept of the idea of God it is called: the germ of death in Life.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,984 posts, read 13,382,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
Exactly. We're also assuming we understand how the Jews perceived ressurection. I HIGHLY recommend to everyone a study of NT Wright. Essentially, having someone claim to be the Christ and gathering together a following was not unusual in those days... and it typically ended with the death of the leader. Because fo this, Peter, John, etc. KNEW that if Jesus died, that was it. They never thought of the possiblity of a resurrected Christ, because exprience showed them that whenever the leader was killed, the followers disbanded.
I've read NT Wright. My explanation accounts for the rise of Christianity, because, under my hypothesis, John and Peter really did believe that Jesus rose from the dead. They didn't know the unknown person who stole the body. They didn't know the body was stolen at all.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,507,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
(2) Only Christianity and Islam demand horrible deaths of its believers.
OK, this ^^^ deserves an award for the most bizzare post of the month.

Care to explain? (esp Christianity)
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
It seems to me the best explanation for these events is that Christ literally was resurrected.
That is far from the best explanation.

First of all, your explanation would require a personal god, which has not been demonstrated to exist, and in fact, has extremely strong evidence against its existence. Secondly, people do NOT rise from the dead, however, mythology is replete with dying and rising figures.

As the apostles were uneducated ancients, they probably did accept the mythological belief of resurrection. However, in 2011, we know that resurrection is impossible, the supernatural is not real, and god(s) probably does not exist. I would accept any naturalistic explanation -- no matter how improbable -- over the resurrection, unless you can provide indisputable, extraordinary evidence that a resurrection occurred. Circumstantial evidence just doesn't cut it.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,507,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
I've read NT Wright. My explanation accounts for the rise of Christianity, because, under my hypothesis, John and Peter really did believe that Jesus rose from the dead. They didn't know the unknown person who stole the body. They didn't know the body was stolen at all.
So what happened to the Roman Soldiers who were guarding the tomb and allowed the body to be stolen?
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,984 posts, read 13,382,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
So what happened to the Roman Soldiers who were guarding the tomb and allowed the body to be stolen?
There were no Roman soldiers guarding the tomb. Read my earlier post -- Matthew embellished the story, adding guards that were never there.
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 3,712,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
OK, this ^^^ deserves an award for the most bizzare post of the month.

Care to explain? (esp Christianity)
RESPONSE:

Originally Posted by Baylorguy
Yes ancient, and tell me... what major world relgion owes its origins to Elvis? How many people have suffered horrible deaths because of their belief in Elvis? Your post is a perfect example of the idea that with statistics... one can "prove" anything.

I'm merely repeating Baylorguy's characterization. See his post above.

But I do think that the martyrdoms of both Christians and Islamists tends to be rather horrible.
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 3,712,642 times
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Baylorguy posted:

But we see a very different thing here, don't we? Not only did his followers stay put... it literally exploded in growth, against all odds. Paul also converted, etc. It seems to me the for these events is that Christ literally was resurrected.

RESPONSE:

On the contrary, most of the world's major religions began as small movements with a good publicist. In the case of Christianity it was Paul. In the case of Islam it was Mohammand.

>>...best explanation ...Christ literally was resurrected.<<

How many people do you know were resurrected? Incidentally, Jesus didn't rise from the dead. He was raised from the dead just like Lazarus, if you believe that story. Read the synoptic gospels and Acts of the Apostles.
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