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I am just curious to know if atheists and agnostics understand these terms:
Faith
Spirit
Religion
God
Prayer
Spirituality
Belief
Do you understand these terms as the people who are religious and spiritual? Do you know what it really means to be and feel spiritual? Do you understand why we believe in such things?
Even if you were once a member of some religion or have studied many religions...
Very thought provoking raison... if man was simply a tech zombie, the SM would satisfy all curiosity and needs...
The SM looks for God in the creation whether acknowledged or not..... absolute reason is and always has been defined as the God....nothing new here
theology represents natural hope for purpose and SM express's the hope in and for reason...same-same..theres no escape..
SM cannot deny merit to the subject of its attention . Interest in creation is
interest in all that is...
BTW you guys and all the sophisticated talking...were no better off then a bunch of vikings who were marvelling at a round earth or something...the more info that is understood the more complex it gets, everybody knows.... the absolute 100%assertions that crop up seem popular,( insinuations by word choice, organization and entry structure) together with the back and forth arguementation, clarification and wiggling out of possible error....amusing, what is the mechanism by which time exists....good luck on that baby
In that case, let us get on to the meaning of your original post.
Whether or not god is real could have a big meaning. Afterall, if he is real, particularly some versions of him, I might be in huge trouble!
But I take your point - that spirituality or faith my be beneficial to some people. Maybe many people. It may have a theraputic effect, it may relieve stress of the everyday world by "turning over your troubles to the lord." It may make the concept of death easier to manage. For some people the idea has value independent of the ideas truth.
On the other hand, as you pointed out, it often has some pretty well documented downsides. And one may wonder if we should encourage people to believe untrue things when they are good, simply because it also conditions them to believe untrue things when they are bad.
The central premise is that the truth matters. If we start encouraging people that the truth does not matter, we may have some unintended consequences, which you are well aware of.
So my position is that it is understandable why some people will get comfort from false beliefs, but notwithstanding that fact, we should still encourage people to only believe those things which are true.
You are still looking at the good and bad and one whole thing. They are two very different things that share certain aspects. Yes there have been many cases of bad things done in the name of religion and spirituality. However, there has been more good done in the name. You have to look at both sides here very carefully. Does the good outweigh the bad in the current time. Yes it does.
This is what many scientists do with technology and medical advancements. They weigh the good and bad. If the Good aka benefits outweighs the bad then they push forward. They do this even if it is only slightly better. This is most often done with medicine. The FDA approves medicine as long as it even slightly works better than a placebo...
You ask for reason and logic... Here it is. It is logical to look at religion as good since the majority of the people who follow them are good and only do good with their religion. Ask any doctor or scientist what is better, a sense of dread or hope? A sense of hope will win out over dread each time as it does help people in a very physical manner.
You are still looking at the good and bad and one whole thing. They are two very different things that share certain aspects. Yes there have been many cases of bad things done in the name of religion and spirituality. However, there has been more good done in the name. You have to look at both sides here very carefully. Does the good outweigh the bad in the current time. Yes it does.
I disagree. Can you name one documented benefit that religion or spiritual beliefs brings people, other than a placebo effect?
The bad is well documented...People who rely on spiritual methods in lieu of medical care have shorter life spans, plus more of their children die needlessly.
You are still looking at the good and bad and one whole thing. They are two very different things that share certain aspects. Yes there have been many cases of bad things done in the name of religion and spirituality. However, there has been more good done in the name. You have to look at both sides here very carefully. Does the good outweigh the bad in the current time. Yes it does.
This is what many scientists do with technology and medical advancements. They weigh the good and bad. If the Good aka benefits outweighs the bad then they push forward. They do this even if it is only slightly better. This is most often done with medicine. The FDA approves medicine as long as it even slightly works better than a placebo...
You ask for reason and logic... Here it is. It is logical to look at religion as good since the majority of the people who follow them are good and only do good with their religion. Ask any doctor or scientist what is better, a sense of dread or hope? A sense of hope will win out over dread each time as it does help people in a very physical manner.
I summarize your agrument thusly:
Religion is a net benefit to society, and therefore we shouldn't discourage it whether or not it's belief system is true.
My response is that religion has not been shown to be a net benefit to society.
And even if it had, encouraging people to "not seek truth" and accept lies is unwise because it can lead to both religious and non-religious harm.
I disagree. Can you name one documented benefit that religion or spiritual beliefs brings people, other than a placebo effect?
The bad is well documented...People who rely on spiritual methods in lieu of medical care have shorter life spans, plus more of their children die needlessly.
You might also want to look into this whole placebo effect thing you keep going on and on about. Guess what? A "placebo effect" is one that is effective. Which means it works. It is a medical phenomenon.
You might also want to look into this whole placebo effect thing you keep going on and on about. Guess what? A "placebo effect" is one that is effective. Which means it works. It is a medical phenomenon.
Right, a mild one, but this "good" does not overcome the negative aspects of religion/spirituality...Beside people dieing by praying or relying of some other spiritual methods of instead of getting proper care, religion is at the root of much bigotry, causes people to kill others who do not share their beliefs, subjugate women, and brainwash children (child abuse). Many children are trained to reject science and reason, are terrorized by images of hell and eternal damnation, suffer extreme guilt over normal sexuality and many other aspects of their lives. Not to forget that some religions require genital mutilation of both sexes.
Islam permits men to marry multiple children as young as 10 years old, and several fundamentalist Mormon churches also allow the same thing...
Remember Jonestown, (909 deaths) the Heavens Gate cult, (39 deaths) the Solar Temple suicides, (74 deaths) Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God (778 deaths)?
Right, a mild one, but this "good" does not overcome the negative aspects of religion/spirituality...Beside people dieing by praying or relying of some other spiritual methods of instead of getting proper care, religion is at the root of much bigotry, causes people to kill others who do not share their beliefs, subjugate women, and brainwash children (child abuse). Many children are trained to reject science and reason, are terrorized by images of hell and eternal damnation, suffer extreme guilt over normal sexuality and many other aspects of their lives. Not to forget that some religions require genital mutilation of both sexes.
Islam permits men to marry multiple children as young as 10 years old, and several fundamentalist Mormon churches also allow the same thing...
Remember Jonestown, (909 deaths) the Heavens Gate cult, (39 deaths) the Solar Temple suicides, (74 deaths) Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God (778 deaths)?
People who have crazy beliefs tend to do crazy things to themselves and others.
Edit: Oh, also I forgot to mention that I have read the Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod.
Quote:
In their Encyclopedia of Wars,[2] authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod attempt a comprehensive listing of wars in history. They document 1763 wars overall, of which 123 (7%) have been classified to involve a religious conflict.
If you actually researched the path that the newer generations are taking the religion, you would see that many of these religions are beginning to change and not follow these old traditions. Of course this isn't going to happen overnight.
You blame religion... I blame lack of intelligence. I would wager that most of the people that do these things have a lower than normal IQ. The rest of the religious population that does not cause harm would be like you and I.
BTW, some homeopathy is real and used in pharmaceutical companies. You know that most vaccines are actually diluted like homeopathy? Not as sever as some homeopathic stuff. I have tried every allergy med on the shelf and from the Rx. Nothing worked, I thought they were but my doc would tell me that they weren't He told me to try some stuff at the local supplement store. It turns out it is homeopathic... to my surprise it worked. I didn't expect it to. It is the only allergy med that I can take when the seasons change.
BTW, some homeopathy is real and used in pharmaceutical companies. You know that most vaccines are actually diluted like homeopathy? Not as sever as some homeopathic stuff. I have tried every allergy med on the shelf and from the Rx. Nothing worked, I thought they were but my doc would tell me that they weren't He told me to try some stuff at the local supplement store. It turns out it is homeopathic... to my surprise it worked. I didn't expect it to. It is the only allergy med that I can take when the seasons change.
Explain that?
Can you tell us what products you are referring to? My understanding of homeopathy is that the remedies are often diluted to the point that it is mathematically provable that the majority of the remedies will actually have no molecules of the active ingredient. As far as I know there is no evidence that ingesting none of a particular substance has any effect beyond that of a placebo. Because that is exactly what it is, a placebo...
I am glad that you found something that worked for you, but as I understand it, there is overwhelming clinical evidence that homeopathy is only as effective as a placebo, and some studies show it to be worse. Your anecdote is fine and good, but I will place my trust in a more objective, repeatable, and scientific evaluation.
As far as your contention that religion is now more tolerant and open, that may be true in some circles. It is decidedly not true in the circles that I was raised in and around. Many of my peers were either raised in an extremely restrictive form of Christianity (Rock music is evil, courtship vs dating, male headship, Summit Ministries, etc...) or an extremely emotional charismatic form (Brownsville revival, Toronto Blessing, Spiritual Warfare Camps, etc... ) I was taught that people who did not agree with Christianity as I was taught it were oppressed by demonic forces, and I had to be on guard against them. Open dialogue was just a conduit for Satan. My peers, my self included, were taught that Christians must take back the nation and the world for Christ by aggressively squelching dissent, and being prepared to defend any gains made in these areas, by force if necessary. I was taught that it was my Christian duty to own and be proficient with a firearm, to resist the atheist, communist, liberal oppressors. This is the legacy that is still being passed down to the next generation of Christians.
My father now practices a form of Christianity that does not bother me so much, teaching Grace, and forgiveness above all else. It is not an offensive, aggressive religious stance. I still believe he is wrong, and it has harmful elements. I would never teach it to my children, but I personally don't feel compelled to make a big deal of it. And yet, as gentle a form of spirituality as it is, he would still feel compelled by it to oppose equal rights for the GLBT community. As personal and non-imposing as his faith is, it still causes a good man to do bad things.
Where is the outcry for deaths caused by conventional medicine? There isn't any, why? Because we are conditioned to believe that the only way to get healthy when sick is to see a doctor, and take medicines. So when something that is considered alternative medicine kills a minute fraction of people each year it is condemned as bad. But who is condemning such medicine... Pharmaceutical companies. Is it because they care about our health? Nope. General thoughts with pharmaceutical companies is that if the medicine kills less than 40% of those that take it, it is worth the risk and they claim the people that died would have died from their ailment anyhow.
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