"Mormonism" and Polygamy: A Poll (atheism, beliefs, Christ)

[Hueffenhardt]

Originally Posted by FireoftheCovenant

Actually, first Joseph Smith called it the Church of Christ. Then he moved onto The Church of the Latter-day Saints. Then, 8 or so years after it was formed, he finally settled on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Yes, that is true, and what I said is true (it is the same as what you said at the end of your post). The thought crossed my mind to explain all of that in my post, but realized it added nothing to my main point about who are Mormons, so I didn't bother to go into any of that. What I said in my post is true as it is worded. The convoluted history of the early official names of Joseph's church was outside of the scope of my post which was focused on explaining who Mormons are.

[june 7th]

This is just a reminder that this thread is about polygamy and the Mormon church. Please let's get the thread back on topic.

Thanks!

[FireoftheCovenant]

Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt

Yes, that is true, and what I said is true (it is the same as what you said at the end of your post). The thought crossed my mind to explain all of that in my post, but realized it added nothing to my main point about who are Mormons, so I didn't bother to go into any of that. What I said in my post is true as it is worded. The convoluted history of the early official names of Joseph's church was outside of the scope of my post which was focused on explaining who Mormons are.

Heh. I wasn't trying to correct you.

[SCGranny]

Bluntly,I've known a lot of Mormons, and I have to tell you that, in my experience, a lot more than 85% don't have a problem with polygamy. Most of the ones I've known believe it is something that they will be permitted, even required, to participate in, in their own afterlife in the Celestial Kingdom to which they all aspire. The proscribed belief in Natural/Eternal Progression - the essence of continued life-after-death - practically requires it of the faithful and worthy who seek to eternally progress in the Kingdom of God. (Which sounds, granted, like a lot more fun and a whole lot more interesting than merely sitting around on clouds, playing harps and singing praises to God all day. Said belief also innately appeals to my scientific side, in that energy and matter do not disappear, merely change form and substance and are eternal - in some form.)

I'd like to offer up another polygamy thought for discussion, one with which I have challenged some Mormons as well as Mormon bishops in the past -

What if women were allowed by the Church to have more than one male mate?

I started it as a joke; i.e., a woman can please more than one man easily, a woman can choose (if she is familiar with her own biology) which individual fathers which children, and it takes more than one man to keep me in the manner to which my father had accustomed me. But, seriously:

What religious as well as practical inhibitors would there be to a female-dominated home, where the sole female makes the decisions as to how many children, who brings in what to the home, what sort of traits and personalities are "choice" and which are to be avoided? Most importantly, what would be the male LDS response to just such a reversal of roles? What would be the female LDS response?

I've been told that males are more jealous, territorial, and more proprietary than females (although in my knowledge of females this is not the case), that females are less comfortable being dominant (again, not my experience) and that, for the religious life-after-death beliefs of the LDS Church, of natural progression through the eons of time after physical death, this would not be feasible nor adaptable. Why- or why not? In a group of individuals who maintain mutual respect and understanding of each others' physical and emotional needs as well as spiritual progression, why would it necessarily follow that the males would be the only dominant ones?

Serious and thoughtful answers here, please. I realize that it is theoretical, since of course the official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not condone, encourage, practice, nor permit polygamy of any type in its members' earthly homes.

[imbobbbb]

Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt

So, technically, she could be married to her eternal companion who is dead and one living "time only" husband at the same time.

So is she commiting adultery??

[imbobbbb]

Originally Posted by SCGranny

What if women were allowed by the Church to have more than one male mate?

Serious and thoughtful answers here, please. I realize that it is theoretical, since of course the official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not condone, encourage, practice, nor permit polygamy of any type in its members' earthly homes.

If the church theoretically gets a 'fax from above' that women are to be allowed multiple husbands and the gov't approves,I really don't care.....but I will not be joining into that group.

I'm not interested in having more than one wife either....I have enough trouble getting along with them one at a time!

[Thomas R.]

To SCGranny yeah it does strike me, on reading this, that it seems LDS allows polygyny in the afterlife but not polyandry. In "down to Earth" matters this is maybe not important, but I admit I either wasn't aware of that before this thread or didn't think about it.

I want to be respectful, but the idea of "afterlife marriage" at all is one of those things that likely causes difficulty with most of Christianity. Although many Christians believe marriage continues after death, Jesus in the Gospels is pretty clearly against that.

"When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." Mark 12:25

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30

Now I saw something from "The New Church", Swedenborgian-influenced church that also teaches marriage in Heaven, to deal with this.

New Church UK

I don't know Mormon reconciling. Or why polygyny, but not polyandry, exist in the afterlife.

[mzjamiedawn]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I think your question is simply designed to provoke an argument. The Church would not ask its members to do something illegal. I'm going to leave it at that.

Originally Posted by FireoftheCovenant

I'm speaking of the Mormons being polygamists - which was illegal while they were in Illinois.

Originally Posted by moonsavvy

Yes this is the problem. They tell us that their church would never have them break the law of the land and yet what do we see when we look a little closer?

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I'm just curious... Could one of you please quote the law they were breaking, because I am only aware of anti-bigamy laws that went into effect after they left Illinois. I'm familiar with the Morill Anti-bigamy Act which was signed into law in 1862, and the 1882 Edmunds Act, which declared polygamy to be a felony. I'm not aware of laws prior to that time which made polygamy illegal.

Originally Posted by FireoftheCovenant

Most of Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages occurred in Illinois in the early 1840s. The Illinois Anti-bigamy Law enacted February 12th, 1833 clearly stated that polygamy was illegal. It reads:

"Sec 121. Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years. It shall not be necessary to prove either of the said marriages by the register or certificate thereof, or other record evidence; but the same may be proved by such evidence as is admissible to prove a marriage in other cases, and when such second marriage shall have taken place without this state, cohabitation in this state after such second marriage shall be deemed the commission of the crime of bigamy, and the trial in such case may take place in the county where such cohabitation shall have occurred."Revised Laws of Illinois, 1833, p.198-99


From mormonthink.com

Originally Posted by moonsavvy

Answered.

Polygamy was illegal, it didn't stop your prophet from asking it's members (pretty young female) to practice it anyway.

After reading this entire thread, this really stuck out at me. Maybe because Katzpur then decided she was done with this thread instead of answering this, but regardless, I am wondering about it even more now.

Since J. Smith did claim that God told him polygamy was now allowed (or ordered?), and it was illegal in Illinois at that time... what conclusion must we come to?

1. J. Smith lied, or
2. God told his people to do something that was illegal.

Do Mormons see a third option?

[Hueffenhardt]

Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt

So, technically, she could be married to her eternal companion who is dead and one living "time only" husband at the same time.

Originally Posted by imbobbbb

So is she commiting adultery??

So, it is your position that if someone has sex with someone they are married to, while they are married to someone else, they have committed adultery? Or, is it only true for women? Are you in for a surprise!

Oh, it gets better. What if a Mormon woman in the 1840's, who is civilly married to one living man, marries another living man for eternity, and then has sex and children with her civilly married husband, has she committed adultery on her eternal husband? What if she also has sex with her eternally married husband? Does any of that qualify as adultery?

Did you know that around 10 (IIRC) of Joseph Smith's 33 plural wives were concurrently married to and living with their civilly married husbands?

Oh, there is a ton of info out there that you can research if you want, but let me get you started with a source that you might trust as it is on a Mormon apologist website: http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf

If that article isn't enough for you, let me know and I'll direct you to more sources. I thought you claimed to have known all the dirt on the Church before you joined. If you did not know about polyandry (women having more than one husband) in the early church, there may be a lot you don't know.

By the way, concerning marriage for time only, which is performed quite often in temples today, this is standard practice. I'll send you a private message to send you a link to the 2006 Church Handbook of Instructions that talks about them.

[Hueffenhardt]

Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn

After reading this entire thread, this really stuck out at me. Maybe because Katzpur then decided she was done with this thread instead of answering this, but regardless, I am wondering about it even more now.

Since J. Smith did claim that God told him polygamy was now allowed (or ordered?), and it was illegal in Illinois at that time... what conclusion must we come to?

1. J. Smith lied, or
2. God told his people to do something that was illegal.

Do Mormons see a third option?

The supposed revelation to Joseph Smith that authorized polygamy is recorded as Doctrine and Covenants Section 132. God's law is supposed to be higher than man's law or the law of the land. Even in the Bible, we have examples of "men of God" defying a king's command (aka law of the land) so that they could obey god's law (see Daniel in the lion's den or Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego in the firey furnance).

The problem is, this supposed revelation of Joseph's came years after he had already started the practice of polygamy and it speaks of marrying virgins, and although Joseph did marry some virgins, he also married women who were not virgins, some of whom were concurrently married to other living men that they were living with. And, the revelation states that he must get his first wife's consent before marrying another and we know that he married marry of his plural wives without the knowledge by Emma, his first wife. So, even if the revelation were true, Joseph violated it in at least three ways.

Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-63:

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. 62 And if he have aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be bglorified.