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Some people are just incredibly arrogant. I'm not a theist but somebody who puts down religion because they think they know everything, or that their reason is a sufficient guide to happy living, are deluding themselves. Please go study a religions like Buddhism, Taoism, or Hindusm... what you are saying about heavenly sky fathers doesn't apply to all religions. Taoism and mystical hinduism don't even care about conventional morality, and neither should those seeking wisdom- it's conventional after all, created by your culture, not transcendent.
And others are self-aggrandizing and self-appointed beyond belief. Arrogance implies some sort of assumption of higher self-awareness, of greater validity, of a more poignant purpose in life. I hold to none of those values or assumptions. I do not ascribe to a st of definitions, of moral behaviors codified into a book that some would have me place my hand on to somehow "prove" my faith and honesty.
Apparently without such acts of utter of delusion, the speaker is neither honest nor to be trusted. Really? What a useful system!
Ego? Arrogance? Hardly. I prefer mental, moral and ethical freedom, with which I can do the right thing, or the wrong thing. It is up to me, not up to the standards and disciplines of others who I'd then have to let do my thinking for me.
So far, according to those who actually know me, I've done the right things, morally, and within my community and family.
I also do not know everything, else I would not be a career scientist. Only the theistic claim that complete knowledge. But also know that I was not referring to Buddhism or Taoism, neither of which, of course, are religions per se. Only philosophies. No argument with them, unless they also invoke some sort of realistic material deity. I referred primarily to dedicated, fundy Christianity, and I'd hope you'd see through their logical conundra and unending faith-based fallacies. Not to mention their arrogance!
Its not 'freedom' to live any immoral way one likes...that is a twist of what Constitutional Freedom is ; the concept of Freedom in this country was for it to be practiced WITHIN the bounds of moral integrity and good ethical standards. Freedom has been turned into enslavement under the catalyst of entitle-itis .
But that's just it, who determines what is moral and what is not? Your only answer to that is "God", but that requires a theocracy that nobody, except you and those like you, wants.
Who decided, back in the day, that the showing of an ankle was scandalous? Who decided it no longer was?
The answer is we all did, as a society.
My guess is that 99% of what you percieve to be immoral about our society revolves around 3 things. Abortion, drugs, and sexuality. Because the big stuff, murder, rape, theft, assault, real crimes with real victims, is not up for debate. There's no movement in society for murder to become legal. Nobody is saying rape should be okay under certain circumstances.
So really, it's the three things I've listed. As for abortion, the war is over. I don't see that changing, ever. Drugs, the so-called "War On (Some) Drugs" has been, is, and will continue to be a failure. Why? Because humans want drugs. They like mind altering substances, it's just that society has seen fit to label some mind altering substances "good" and others "bad". That, too, is changing, though ever so slowly.
As far as matters of sexuality, what others choose to do is none of your business. Yes, the past 50 years have seen some dramatic changes in what's considered "normal" and/or "acceptable". Homosexuality is on the verge of being considered "normal", and within 50-100 years will be so. The idea of a virgin until marriage and then monogamous after, to the extent it was ever really the way things were (as opposed to people pretended that's how things were), it is not any longer. It used to be that "good girls don't" but today, they certainly do.
I see all of this as good. We as a society, and as a species have always had what I consider an unhealthy relationship with our sexuality. Many, perhaps you, consider it wrong to enjoy it, and wrong to do it at all, with anyone, unless it's your legal spouse and you're attempting to procreate.
But, we're slowly, as a species, learning that the old ways are ridiculous and unnecessary. I predict those changes will continue.
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If we took away absolute Road Laws, do you think this would make for a more Just society also ?
Road Laws exist for a reason. If we didn't have traffic control, safety and speed limits, and other regulations, travel would be unsafe and unreliable. The laws that I suspect you would enact if you were King have nothing to do with order, rather would just reflect you attempting to shove your morality down the throats of the rest of us.
Many of the so-called entitlement programs at least started out as offering a helping hand to those in need. Which programs do you consider entitlements? Would your belief in the 10 commandments as a foundation for government defend doing away with that?
Who claims that a construct of moral relativism is in place in American society? Does it have anything to do with the government? (I'm very much in favor of our Constitution.)
1. The liberty and entitlement to murder ones own developing Baby while in the womb, due to immoral sexual hedonism gone further wrong. ..as one example of many. Yes, the commandment not to murder applies.
2. The advent of Post Modernism in America whos chief construct is Moral Relativism , is what permeates American Society ...or, a deliberate getting away from God and his absolute moral laws for our own protection and civility. It has alot to do with our modern Government because they are spineless , are an example of moral corruption to the populus, and have gotton far away from how the Founding Fathers and Framers of our Constitution meant for this Country to operate...and that was on distinct Christian ethics, principles and moral values . Instead, people have decided to twist the freedoms alloted them as Americans by the Constitution, to be used for any kind of behavior and lifestyle choice they deem fit , regardless of right from wrong. In fact, with such a philosophy, its only wrong if you *think it is. And so we have a long list of societal ills which can be traced specifically on the construct of atheistic moral relativism., along with willful apathy to fuel it.
But that's just it, who determines what is moral and what is not? Your only answer to that is "God", but that requires a theocracy that nobody, except you and those like you, wants.
Who decided, back in the day, that the showing of an ankle was scandalous? Who decided it no longer was?
The answer is we all did, as a society.
My guess is that 99% of what you percieve to be immoral about our society revolves around 3 things. Abortion, drugs, and sexuality. Because the big stuff, murder, rape, theft, assault, real crimes with real victims, is not up for debate. There's no movement in society for murder to become legal. Nobody is saying rape should be okay under certain circumstances.
So really, it's the three things I've listed. As for abortion, the war is over. I don't see that changing, ever. Drugs, the so-called "War On (Some) Drugs" has been, is, and will continue to be a failure. Why? Because humans want drugs. They like mind altering substances, it's just that society has seen fit to label some mind altering substances "good" and others "bad". That, too, is changing, though ever so slowly.
As far as matters of sexuality, what others choose to do is none of your business. Yes, the past 50 years have seen some dramatic changes in what's considered "normal" and/or "acceptable". Homosexuality is on the verge of being considered "normal", and within 50-100 years will be so. The idea of a virgin until marriage and then monogamous after, to the extent it was ever really the way things were (as opposed to people pretended that's how things were), it is not any longer. It used to be that "good girls don't" but today, they certainly do.
I see all of this as good. We as a society, and as a species have always had what I consider an unhealthy relationship with our sexuality. Many, perhaps you, consider it wrong to enjoy it, and wrong to do it at all, with anyone, unless it's your legal spouse and you're attempting to procreate.
But, we're slowly, as a species, learning that the old ways are ridiculous and unnecessary. I predict those changes will continue.
Road Laws exist for a reason. If we didn't have traffic control, safety and speed limits, and other regulations, travel would be unsafe and unreliable. The laws that I suspect you would enact if you were King have nothing to do with order, rather would just reflect you attempting to shove your morality down the throats of the rest of us.
And, you dont think morality exists for a reason ??
You demonstrate you know and have absolute moral laws in the fiber of your being ...not so much from what you do, but, from your telling reactions each time another morally violates you. You can deny morality, you can suppress it, your actions may contradict it...but your REactions reveal that you know it . So, dont be too quick at 'the shoving of morality down your throat' mantra...since you already demand it from others and you would certainly not want to live in a society that was fully permeated with this bad construct for society , nor individually.
1. The liberty and entitlement to murder ones own developing Baby while in the womb, due to immoral sexual hedonism gone further wrong. ..as one example of many. Yes, the commandment not to murder applies.
2. The advent of Post Modernism in America whos chief construct is Moral Relativism , is what permeates American Society ...or, a deliberate getting away from God and his absolute moral laws for our own protection and civility. It has alot to do with our modern Government because they are spineless , are an example of moral corruption to the populus, and have gotton far away from how the Founding Fathers and Framers of our Constitution meant for this Country to operate...and that was on distinct Christian ethics, principles and moral values . Instead, people have decided to twist the freedoms alloted them as Americans by the Constitution, to be used for any kind of behavior and lifestyle choice they deem fit , regardless of right from wrong. In fact, with such a philosophy, its only wrong if you *think it is. And so we have a long list of societal ills which can be traced specifically on the construct of atheistic moral relativism., along with willful apathy to fuel it.
You can believe anything you want about abortion, no matter how wrong you are. Murder is the illegal killing of a human being. The SCOTUS says abortion is legal, so it, by definition, cannot be murder, no matter how many times you say it is.
We've already conclusively shown you in previous posts that this country was not founded on Christian anything. Frankly, I'm getting tired of correcting you on the same thing over and over.
There you go with that atheistic moral relativism again. Do you think if you repeat it enough it will become right?
And, you dont think morality exists for a reason ??
Of course. And laws prohibiting murder, and providing punishment for doing so anyway absolutely make sense.
But the laws you (probably) have in mind do not.
I imagine, were you king, you'd declare at least some of the following to be enacted into law:
Homosexual activity would be a crime.
Sodomy would be a crime.
Sex toys would be illegal.
Some dress standard... No thongs, no bikinis, something along those lines.
Non-marital sex would be a crime.
And so on.
But, unlike traffic laws, none of the above would bring more order into society, just more of (your) morality. No thanks.
Quote:
You demonstrate you know and have absolute moral laws in the fiber of your being ...not so much from what you do, but, from your telling reactions each time another morally violates you. You can deny morality, you can suppress it, your actions may contradict it...but your REactions reveal that you know it.
So you're saying I KNOW, in the fiber of my being, that homosexuality is wrong? It's true, I am heterosexual, and if I were raped by a man, I would find that immoral, but not because it was male on male sex, rather because it used force and violence to compel me to do something I didn't want to do. My wife, on the otherhand, is bisexual, not heterosexual, and there is nothing about her trists with women that I find in the fiber of my being to be wrong.
America will not be a just society until religion is completely eradicated, or at least totally eliminated from the public sphere. The delusion of religion and the desire to control others by one's own religion-derived "moral" standards drives most immorality and injustice in society today. It was religion, specifically fundamentalist Christianity, that empowered the right-wing politicians and corporations that destroyed our economy. It was conservative politicians, elected by devoutly religious people, who got us mired in two pointless wars in the Middle East. It is religious people who insist on cutting benefits for the poor, while giving even more breaks to the wealthy. Religion is at the root of many evils in America, and it is something that needs to be smashed if we are to move forward as a society.
What moral and ethical system/standard do you feel is better than the 10 Commandments for a nation like America...and what would be the advantages over these 10 Commandments in society ?
I'm sure there are some experts in ethics who could come up with a better law code, then one made for a specific people, in a specific time, and a specific place - Mensaguy points this out further down the page, and it should be fairly obvious, anyways.
1 - Woodrow points out (in the post after yours) that some of them are specific to one deity (Yahweh) - and most people can't even bring themselves to admit that they worship Yahweh: they have to substitute LORD or God or something else. So the worship of Yahweh has evolved since that time, and now we have our various forms of worship such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam - and Yahweh's name is pretty taboo among the 1st group, evolved into a trinity in the next, and transformed back into a pure monotheism using Allah in the third example. Religions don't remain static, and this evolution away from the name of Yahweh is proof-positive of this.
2- The Decalogue was not sufficient for the ancient Israelites - it had to be supplemented with further laws, which was even then deemed not specific enough for later believers. Thus, oral teachings were developed to help believers deal with the changing times, and the difficulty of applying an older law code to a newer world - a world that had to deal with issues the writer of the Decalogue never envisioned. The practice continued into Christianity, where the importance of the legal code and the oral teachings were dismissed entirely with the belief that Jesus replaced them, or fullfilled them.
So - to sum up: it wasn't an absolute and perfect set of laws for the ancient Israelites, and it certainly isn't an absolute and perfect set of laws for us non-Israelites. Jesus, himself, found many of the laws untenable and was known as being a great interpretor of Torah: many laws he made less harsh, and some he made more harsh. He realized what you may not have yet.
If you had focused on the rest of my post - rather than zeroing in on my apparantly gross temerity in suggesting that an ancient law code was not appropriate to a modern world - you might have noticed that much of what I said directly supported many of your points, rather than the efforts of those who would utterly remove religion from modern society in an effort to take certain constitutional ideas past their logical boundaries.
But - like anything - one cannot just blindly use ancient teachings in a modern society. We must be a little critical, and perhaps - just perhaps - adapt those teachings, or change them, maybe even evolve them - to fit the circumstances that require their use in the first place. Nothing grows in a vacuum, and neither did the Torah or the Decalogue - it had it's own precedents, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation if some individuals hadn't produced their own version for the Israelites.
America will not be a just society until religion is completely eradicated, or at least totally eliminated from the public sphere. The delusion of religion and the desire to control others by one's own religion-derived "moral" standards drives most immorality and injustice in society today. It was religion, specifically fundamentalist Christianity, that empowered the right-wing politicians and corporations that destroyed our economy. It was conservative politicians, elected by devoutly religious people, who got us mired in two pointless wars in the Middle East. It is religious people who insist on cutting benefits for the poor, while giving even more breaks to the wealthy. Religion is at the root of many evils in America, and it is something that needs to be smashed if we are to move forward as a society.
And a more dogmatic statement - I've never heard.
You have more in common with religious groups than you think, northstar.
They - at least - have the decency to admit they are religions, and not hide behind the latest claim to enlightenment: science, truth and reason! ONLY in the possession of the non-religionists, after all! Everyone else is wrong, we are right! Those fools! Barbaric brainwashers!
"But - like anything - one cannot just blindly use ancient teachings in a modern society. We must be a little critical, and perhaps - just perhaps - adapt those teachings, or change them, maybe even evolve them - to fit the circumstances that require their use in the first place. Nothing grows in a vacuum, and neither did the Torah or the Decalogue - it had it's own precedents, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation if some individuals hadn't produced their own version for the Israelites. ..."
But the Isrealites within the Quran are not quite at the beginning. They are represented in the course of Man searching for the understanding of the folly of failing survival for the meaning of determined truth that was not really free. Truly Adam sinned to be free. And therefore freedom had it's consequential situation of foolishness and wickedness. no doubt it was a right of man to freely overcome this in judgment in time. Time becoming self-conscious per time uniquely occurring forever to the hope that man made sense for the forward instead of the backward, the unity of the forward and the backward.
In the beginning there was the project for the end of all eternity hoping for life on Earth making sense for All creation: alpha and omega. But maybe Man after-all as Bertrand Russel claimed was a total accident. Thus man is undetermined of Sin. He is determined just by science's explanation that his sins are excused by the "devil".
Last edited by tgnostic; 11-07-2011 at 05:07 PM..
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