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Brainwashed = being taught stuff with which I disagree.
Get the thing called perspective. You know, the ability to think outside of your personal box. I enjoy it. Try it sometime.
Brainwashing is the indoctrination of a belief or philosophy that cannot be supported by any evidence and is detrimental to the victim. Religious indoctrination fits that definition of brainwashing.
I find that sort of indoctrination to leave a bad taste in my mouth......I would prefer that children just be left to play....rather than be preached at...and then expected to respond with exuberance for something they don't/can't understand...most likely out of fear...should they look different!
To some extent all or almost education is in a way indoctrination. I remember having to write essays on "Why the US is the greatest country", or some such twaddle, in elementary school and in some schools there's the saying of the Pledge. (Atheists get hepped on the "Under God" part, but even before that was in it you were having children taking something like a loyalty oath to the State/Nation. Nationalism has killed far more than religion, at least in the last 13 decades) And in some schools there's Left-leaning indoctrination I take it. Anyway it didn't take me too long to realize that "learning", in the academic sense, is better done on your own time. School is about getting approval so you can advance in your education, being exposed to subjects that don't interest you, learning social skills, and figuring out how to frame what you say to please an audience. (That last, to an extent, means "spin.") Looking back I think those were valuable skills one does need.
Although I didn't go to religion classes much because when I was little I was often having bone fractures, nature of my condition, and it was too hard to take me at night which is when they had the classes. Later I had a one-on-one with a nun or religion teacher. I was suspicious of the nun because she struck me as a tad heterodox, I was a teen by then and doing my own reading on religion, but she was nice and offered an interesting perspective. I do think in some ways my relative lack of formal religious education was a positive as I'm more faithful than many of my siblings who did go.
Still what I remember of the religion classes I took they might fit much of what you're saying, although I think we had more discussion than what you're mentioning, but I think you're projecting onto kids what you think they should be or should/would feel. Some kids were pretty clearly flippant in religious classes I went to. I think as a little boy I sometimes spaced out or kissed the girls during the few times I attended. (In some ways I was almost more into females at age 8 than today) I certainly believed in God and prayer, but I wasn't quite at the age to take anything too serious yet. And considering I was perfectly able to tune out the "The US is the greatest nation, All Hail USA" indoctrination in public school I think if I was "indoctrinated" by what religious education I had it's because I wanted/want to be. I wasn't an empty cipher to be filled by whatever adults said and it's not like I was ever locked in a room for days without access to conflicting information. I imagine many to most kids weren't.
The main thing I don't understand in this story is, in a way, your marriage. But some of your later posts explain that a bit. I think it could be awkward though, but on reflection it's maybe not my business.
Last edited by Thomas R.; 11-05-2011 at 10:16 PM..
We may not be able to prove that "God" does not exist but we can prove that he is not a loving, compassionate, merciful, caring god that loves us more than he does his own son.
We may not be able to prove that "God" does not exist but we can prove that he is not a loving, compassionate, merciful, caring god that loves us more than he does his own son.
You do know the real reason there are situations like in your photo? It has nothing to do with "God".
Last night, as a good handy-man type, I was doing some volunteer work on a physical-plant issue at the church where my wife works. Coincidentally, the evening Children for Jesus meeting was ongoing. The kids come down one afternoon during the week, and they get a free "nutritional dinner" (more on that later...) plus some spiritual guidance under the guise of a music, activities and acting-out program.
The target age group was all elementary school age; 5 to 8 or 9 yrs of age.
I saw them receiving food that was, sadly, on a par with the local school kitchen's offerings; previously frozen fish sticks, chicken "nuggets", and potato tots. There was also a plate of relish (pickles, black olives and the like). One of the nice older church ladies had prepared a wonderful, appealing plate of fresh raw veggies: broccoli, carrot sticks, celery and ranch dip. That one remained essentially untouched, except that she smiled wanely at me, and I gratefully took a handful, dipping into the also-handmade Ranch dressing. Tasty!
Then, the kids were treated to day-old donuts donated by our local super grocery store. How thoughtful of them! "Sugar For Jesus!"
Now then: the program: They were first conjoined in a rugby-type scrum prayer (all in an arms-locked circle, chanting "God is Great, God is Good; Yeahhhhh GAWD!" ) A sort of cheerleader-squad rant. The adult leader then added an inquisiitive and loudly yelled "Right, kids?? RIGHT? God IS Great! YEH!??" immediately after this chant, to confirm the words and mood of the rugby roundhouse chant.
Then there was an egalitarian sit-in-a-circle meeting in which the leader read from some sort of visually charming tract, and showed the kids some of the colorful pictures therein. I'd say it was a religious comic book, but I don't know for sure.
Then my wife took over: her part was to enthusiastically lead the kids in religiously oriented sing-along songs, in which, again, all things positive were attributed to, and acknowledged to be from and by God and Jesus.
Then there was ≈ 20 - 30 minutes of rousing singing, in which some of the songs relied on predictably co-dependent participation by individuals in the group taking up small solo parts in which they profess their undying (!) loyalty to the God of the house. Group acceptance by subversive manipulation? I mean, some of these 6 or 7 very young and socially inexperienced kids seemed quite afraid, but yet they went along with it all. Reluctantly, but also looking up at the room's ceiling from time to time. Avoiding God's wrath perchance?
Later, I (jokingly, of course..) offered my teacher's services to provide an unbiased counter-point directly from the open-minded atheist's perspective, but talk about a wan look from my wifey! She seemingly felt it would have been more than a bit dis-respectful given the setting!
Oh well then; OK. I'll have to hold off, but the psycho-damage was being done on purpose right in front of me, IMHO, and it's never too late to save a few young souls from perdition, I say! As well, can you imagine: this sort of unchecked weekday subversion is ongoing all across the fruited plain 52 weeks a year.
So: bigger question is: do any of you also feel this is a bit subversive? Taking advantage of the innocent young mind at it's most easily approached or manipulated? Do you see any overt manipulation here? Or do you see or hear any alternative perspectives simultaneously presented (at your church, for instance...), just to make it fair?
Religion won't work if you don't indoctrinate at a young age.
You do know the real reason there are situations like in your photo? It has nothing to do with "God".
Oh yes, I know what causes such situations. I'm pointing out that if a loving, compassionate, merciful, caring deity DID exist then such situations would be prevented by that deity. The fact that they are not can only mean one of two things. Either the deity doesn't care or it doesn't exist.
PS. I'll be standing by for the 'free-will' argument.
We may not be able to prove that "God" does not exist but we can prove that he is not a loving, compassionate, merciful, caring god that loves us more than he does his own son.
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted." Matthew 5:4
"I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy." John 16:20
Christianity doesn't claim a life of earthly bliss for all people. Some will suffer, despair, and die. Some will even be tortured in brutal fashion, die, and be thrown away like trash to be forgotten by others.
However Christianity indicates they will not be truly forgotten. That starving kid is loved and, regardless of his religion, may know love everlasting. He will be like my brother or everyone's brother if we see him in Heaven. (I don't want to presume I'm going)
In a godless world he'll, at best, get rescued and live an average life. But not every such kid will no matter how hard atheists work. And when such kids die in youth will simply be sad or tragedy. In a world without an afterlife there will be no hope such people get to experience the joys and friendships that a half a dozen African dictators or kleptocrats know so well. And considering most of the poorest people believe in God, or the gods or something, in a godless world they'll have led their pitiable lives laboring under a delusion.
So anyway, thanks for reminding us of the value and justice of religion compared to the condescension or injustice of what you're presumably offering.
Oh yes, I know what causes such situations. I'm pointing out that if a loving, compassionate, merciful, caring deity DID exist then such situations would be prevented by that deity. The fact that they are not can only mean one of two things. Either the deity doesn't care or it doesn't exist.
You make a very good point and it's something that I could never understand either. If there is a God, why doesn't he intercede? That's a very sad picture btw. You can feel the desperation and loneliness, and the bird knows where his next meal is coming from.
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