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Originally Posted by shibainu
Didn't Jesus and Paul stated in the new testament that he would return in their generation. The disciples believed that Jesus would return before they died.
You should get the gist of the conversation from this one post, but you may find the rest of the thread interesting, too.
Quote:
But how do christians know jesus as the messiah as being right. If the messiah was meant mostly for the jews?
This is probably going to sound really snotty, but--believe me--I don't mean it to. Christians (by and large) believe the entire message of God isn't contained in the Old Testament (the Torah is even more limited). We believe the New Testament is also a vital part of God's message to the Jewish community. We're convinced Jesus is the Messiah for various reasons, but most would say it's through the work of God's Spirit to us and within us, plus the witness of the New Testament. While we feel that Christians have embraced the whole message, we also feel that most Jews have only embraced part of the message.
I'm not sure Messiah was meant mostly for the Jews. Although the word Messiah is a Jewish term, God's message was actually for the world, even in Old Testament times. Before the Flood, God hadn't given special revelation to any one group of people; all were treated equally. All, equally, abandoned God and did what was right in their own eyes. Shortly after the Flood, God revealed Himself to Abram/Abraham and made promises regarding this lineage. It seems that God did this so that the nations of the world would see the difference between themselves and Abraham's descendants. When the nations saw the blessings bestowed upon the nation of Israel, it would cause them to ask questions about the differences; these questions would ultimately lead them to a knowledge of Abraham's God. There's ample Old Testament evidence that the nations knew of the power and works of Israel's God.
While it is true that the Jewish people were supposed to be a separate people, there was room for inclusion. Others were to be admitted if they embraced the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Rahab and Ruth are two examples of Gentiles being accepted within the Jewish community. The prophet Jonah was sent to Nineveh to spread God's word. Various households and kingdoms knew they were blessed because of the Jewish God showing favoritism to His people within the household or kingdom; some embraced this God because of the evidence before their eyes.
God's message has always been for the world. It's just that He chose to demonstrate his might and blessings through one, tiny nation. When that nation rejected the ultimate gift--Jesus--God's message was sent directly to the rest of the nations. I believe God's promises to Israel are still valid today, and I firmly believe they are right to still hope in the Messiah. He will come and be all that Israel ever expected him to be. I just firmly believe the Jews will be surprised at his identity!
So Christians didn't 'invent' Christianity based on mistranslations. We're following in the footsteps of our Jewish fore-fathers.
For some reason, my replies were deleted, so I won't waste a lot more time here. However, I'll just say this: if Christians really are following the footsteps of their Jewish forefathers (sic), then they'd follow the Torah, not the Christian Bible, which clearly does contradict Torah, despite what Christians wish. Jews do not worship people, period.
For some reason, my replies were deleted, so I won't waste a lot more time here. However, I'll just say this: if Christians really are following the footsteps of their Jewish forefathers (sic), then they'd follow the Torah, not the Christian Bible, which clearly does contradict Torah, despite what Christians wish. Jews do not worship people, period.
So Jesus, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John weren't Jewish??
That's wild, I always thought they were.
And I don't know what posts you're referring to being deleted. But this thread has been kinda quiet, so I may have missed some......
So if we believe that g-d stated in the Old Testament to all people not just the Jews to follow my commandments and keep them and g-d will bless you. Then why is there a need for Christianity?
G-d stated all these things before Jesus came into the picture:
G-d states all people have the right to know g-d and do all his commandments and you will be greatly rewarded.
No other person but yourself is accountable for your own sins.
You can go before g-d and correct those sins with out a mediator.
G-d stated he will not take a human form.
G-d stated do not change my words do not add or remove to what I have said.
See I believed in Christianity all my life until recently. I had a challenge in my life with this idea. If g-d is pure and makes no errors why would the bible have conflict? So if you were to believe that g-d is perfect than why is there so many conflicts (accuracy of history) in the Christian bible?
You may not like my answer but it is because it is not of the g-d of Israel. If the g-d of Israel required the people to do what is command for all eternity than why would he change? Why doesn't g-d even say a word in the New Testament?
See I start to look at why and I have had a couple of challenges in scripture for the New Testament. I also learned the history of Christianity and there is to much pagan practices which g-d forbid in the Jewish law.
I think the true story of Christianity was that Paul believed in Mithraism and used that religion with Judaism to have a little more of a sales pitch for people that never heard of this new religion called Christianity. So Paul did not look to covert the Jews but the gentiles which had no clue as to what the Jews believed in but they were very familiar with pagan worship. So Paul ended up with a group of people that were easy to convert.
Paul thought Jews that do not convert to Christianity are just consider blind and they will one day realize that Jesus is g-d.
But the real truth is g-d stated several time he can not take a human form and he is the One and only g-d. The Jews believe if he took a human form than he would not be superior to man. The believe g-d is almighty and you can not make g-d small.
See this is what I have a hard time understanding is if g-d said certain thing that describes who he is to the Jews and Christians. Why do Christians believe in something total different?
For some reason, my replies were deleted, so I won't waste a lot more time here. However, I'll just say this: if Christians really are following the footsteps of their Jewish forefathers (sic), then they'd follow the Torah, not the Christian Bible, which clearly does contradict Torah, despite what Christians wish. Jews do not worship people, period.
I know that the Jews don't agree with us on this one, but I'd like to point out that this is kind of a no-win situation. The Jews believe that Jesus was human. We also believe that he was human, but fully God at the same time. So, from a Christian's perspective, we don't believe in worshiping people either.
So Jesus, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John weren't Jewish??
That's wild, I always thought they were.
I appreciate the fact that you think all Jews are pious and Torah-observant, but as you can see, that is obviously not the case. I'll amend my statement: Jews who are Torah-observant cannot worship any idols. Those Jews who do are apostates and are breaking G-d's commandments.
I know that the Jews don't agree with us on this one, but I'd like to point out that this is kind of a no-win situation. The Jews believe that Jesus was human. We also believe that he was human, but fully God at the same time. So, from a Christian's perspective, we don't believe in worshiping people either.
The part I was trying to stress was that we believe he wasfully God even as he took on a human body during his mission to this earth.
Thank you. This is completely contradictory against what Torah says, which is that G-d is One. In other words, G-d is above us and will never take human or any other form. G-d is whole.
Both religions use the old testament/torah/tanakh. Has anyone ever wonder why the Jews believe some thing total different than the Christians. If Judaism is where the Old Testament gets it origins from I would believe they would have a better interpretation than a Christian. So how do Christians still believe in there religion?
For an example Christians believe that Jesus was born by the Virgin Mary. The actually verse in the tanakh(old testament) never states virgin.
Christian bible
Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
The tanakh verse is:
14 Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel
I know that it was mistranslated when the bible was written in Greek.
My point is if the jews were given the old testament as instructions from g-d. Then they should know what g-d commanded. So if they were told that xyz is going to happen why did Christians change that? Doesn't this hurt the validity of Christianity?
I am wondering if I am the only one that has thought about this.
Juduism gave rise to what we now call Christianity- It was started by Jews; therefore, it should be obvious not all Jews believe the same things about the Torah...many have accepted the truth and delight in the whole of Gods's Word. Moreover, Christians have not change the BiBle and the Jews validated Christianity from a certain perspective (Jesus the Christ does not need man's validation). "Messianic" Jews wrote almost all of the New Testament. Christianity is not in conflict with Judism on any level. In fact the two cannot be separated. The book of Isaiah is not the only book of the Bible that talks about a virgin having a son. Read Luke's account. I do not believe Isaiah was translated wrong and there are many Jews who agree with me on this issue. I have a very good friend who is Jewish. She does not read the Bible/ Torah for herself especially the book of Isaiah. Her Rabbi does and in the oral tradition he adds the interpretation. We talk about Christianity sometimes, but she cannot offer me an informed opinion. She does not read the Bible for herself. I think everyone needs to read all of the Word of God for themselves and pray for understanding. God will not withhold the Truth or the Way if you ask and seek HIM. My question to you is how can a Jew not accept YESHUA MASHIACH or not embrace B'rit Hadashah? The whole of Gods written word is contained in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. The Torah or Tanakh is not all of God's word to all HIS people, nor is it complete without the books of the New Testament. I suggest you read David Stern's "Complete Jewish Bible" Shalom
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