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Both religions use the old testament/torah/tanakh. Has anyone ever wonder why the Jews believe some thing total different than the Christians. If Judaism is where the Old Testament gets it origins from I would believe they would have a better interpretation than a Christian. So how do Christians still believe in there religion?
For an example Christians believe that Jesus was born by the Virgin Mary. The actually verse in the tanakh(old testament) never states virgin.
Christian bible
Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
The tanakh verse is:
14 Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel
I know that it was mistranslated when the bible was written in Greek.
My point is if the jews were given the old testament as instructions from g-d. Then they should know what g-d commanded. So if they were told that xyz is going to happen why did Christians change that? Doesn't this hurt the validity of Christianity?
I am wondering if I am the only one that has thought about this.
My point is if the jews were given the old testament as instructions from g-d. Then they should know what g-d commanded. So if they were told that xyz is going to happen why did Christians change that? Doesn't this hurt the validity of Christianity?
I am wondering if I am the only one that has thought about this.
Well, I don't think you'll find too many Jews who will argue with you.
One of the real problems is that the Christian Bible isn't just translated from one language. It's translated from a translated language: Hebrew to Greek to English. It's difficult enough to extract an accurate translation from just one language. Add another language, and it's just begging for errors.
Both religions use the old testament/torah/tanakh. Has anyone ever wonder why the Jews believe some thing total different than the Christians. If Judaism is where the Old Testament gets it origins from I would believe they would have a better interpretation than a Christian. So how do Christians still believe in there religion?
For an example Christians believe that Jesus was born by the Virgin Mary. The actually verse in the tanakh(old testament) never states virgin.
Christian bible
Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
The tanakh verse is:
14 Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel
I know that it was mistranslated when the bible was written in Greek.
My point is if the jews were given the old testament as instructions from g-d. Then they should know what g-d commanded. So if they were told that xyz is going to happen why did Christians change that? Doesn't this hurt the validity of Christianity?
I am wondering if I am the only one that has thought about this.
So, your assertion is that the Jews who translated the book of Isaiah in 200 B.C. didn't know what they were doing? Since the word "almah" can mean "girl", "young woman", etc...but the translators used the Greek word for virgin. How are you certain that virginity wasn't implied in "almah"? How do you know biblical Hebrew better than those who had the task of translating it 200 years before the time of Christ? Do you disagree simply because of the linguistic aspect of it? Or do you disagree because it is used to support Christian belief?
Since the word "almah" can mean "girl", "young woman", etc...but the translators used the Greek word for virgin. How are you certain that virginity wasn't implied in "almah"?
When you hear the word "girl" in English, do you automatically assume it means virgin? A girl can be a virgin, but if we want to convey that the girl is a virgin, we use the accurate term, which is virgin and not girl.
Unfortunately, mistranslations abound. That's why reading any text, no matter what is it, will always be more accurate in its original language.
So, your assertion is that the Jews who translated the book of Isaiah in 200 B.C. didn't know what they were doing? Since the word "almah" can mean "girl", "young woman", etc...but the translators used the Greek word for virgin. How are you certain that virginity wasn't implied in "almah"? How do you know biblical Hebrew better than those who had the task of translating it 200 years before the time of Christ? Do you disagree simply because of the linguistic aspect of it? Or do you disagree because it is used to support Christian belief?
See you believe that it was the Jews that translated the text differently. Why would Jews mistranslate there own text? Were the first Christians really Jewish? Paul claimed he converted to becoming a Jew. Corinthians 9:20-22: To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law -- though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak.
If Judaism was created around 1800 b.c and g-d gave the torah in 1300 b.c. That is about a thousand years they had time to study before the Christians created there bible in 300 a.d. (which the Christians left out there Gnostic gospel.)
But back to my point. It does not matter if it is virgin birth or not. I am asking why a text that was written for a group a people that take it as law of land would not know what g-d inscribed. Why is there a complete difference in the idea?
So here is what I understand so far If the original Jews and first Christian were Jews they would have the same bible. So if the original Jews believed that g-d said that a messiah was to come to the earth and he had to meet these requirements:
First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
Jews for Judaism FAQ - The Jewish Messiah - Criteria (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html - broken link)
Why would the first Christian if they were Jews think differently?
See you believe that it was the Jews that translated the text differently. Why would Jews mistranslate there own text? Were the first Christians really Jewish? Paul claimed he converted to becoming a Jew. Corinthians 9:20-22: To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law -- though not being myself under the law -- that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law -- not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ -- that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak.
Context and continuity are important here. This means that he behaved as a Jew, and followed Jewish observances. Similar things can be seen when he had Timothy circumcised despite his rantings against gentile circumcision, because not being circumcised would be detrimental in his discourse with Jews.
Another thing that you're not addressing is that the Septuagint, which was the basis for many older Christian bible translations, was written around 200 BC. It's not like there could be a Christian bias to the Septuagint as there were no Christians. Septuagint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Both religions use the old testament/torah/tanakh. Has anyone ever wonder why the Jews believe some thing total different than the Christians. If Judaism is where the Old Testament gets it origins from I would believe they would have a better interpretation than a Christian. So how do Christians still believe in there religion?
For an example Christians believe that Jesus was born by the Virgin Mary. The actually verse in the tanakh(old testament) never states virgin.
Christian bible
Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
The tanakh verse is:
14 Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel
I know that it was mistranslated when the bible was written in Greek.
My point is if the jews were given the old testament as instructions from g-d. Then they should know what g-d commanded. So if they were told that xyz is going to happen why did Christians change that? Doesn't this hurt the validity of Christianity?
I am wondering if I am the only one that has thought about this.
I see the spirit of your post, but my response isn't directed at who knows what when or where or even on translation so much.
In short, it's this:
All of the early Christians, the folks that new Christ, even Christ Himself....we're Jewish.
So Christians didn't 'invent' Christianity based on mistranslations. We're following in the footsteps of our Jewish fore-fathers.
I see the spirit of your post, but my response isn't directed at who knows what when or where or even on translation so much.
In short, it's this:
All of the early Christians, the folks that new Christ, even Christ Himself....we're Jewish.
So Christians didn't 'invent' Christianity based on mistranslations. We're following in the footsteps of our Jewish fore-fathers.
I agree with Alpha.
You have to remember we as Christians view Jesus as our ultimate example. The disciples were WITH Jesus all time. What they wrote wasn’t second hand hearsay. They personally knew Jesus. It is certain that they discussed how Jesus came to the earth (his Birth and such). Had they disciples been wrong…Jesus himself would have surely corrected them. Jesus wouldn’t have let them go around thinking incorrect ideas about how He came to be. He corrected them many times on LOTS of things, He surely would have corrected them on His birth.
You have to remember we as Christians view Jesus as our ultimate example. The disciples were WITH Jesus all time. What they wrote wasn’t second hand hearsay. They personally knew Jesus. It is certain that they discussed how Jesus came to the earth (his Birth and such). Had they disciples been wrong…Jesus himself would have surely corrected them. Jesus wouldn’t have let them go around thinking incorrect ideas about how He came to be. He corrected them many times on LOTS of things, He surely would have corrected them on His birth.
True, but what I am really saying is much more basic than even that.
What I am saying is that the apostle Paul was a Pharisee. Not some rambling non-religious guy looking to invent some religion. He was Jewish and points the world squarely to Jesus. His favorite past-time before his conversion was persecuting Christians.
My point is this:
The thread's OP is making an argument that Jews should know more about the OT and the coming Messiah than anyone else. I'm in complete agreement and base my beliefs on the teachings and accounts handed down by Jewish writers.
True, but what I am really saying is much more basic than even that.
What I am saying is that the apostle Paul was a Pharisee. Not some rambling non-religious guy looking to invent some religion. He was Jewish and points the world squarely to Jesus. His favorite past-time before his conversion was persecuting Christians.
My point is this:
The thread's OP is making an argument that Jews should know more about the OT and the coming Messiah than anyone else. I'm in complete agreement and base my beliefs on the teachings and accounts handed down by Jewish writers.
That's what I am really trying to say.....
Even better point - I had to rep you on that one!
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- I had to rep you on that one!
