Did Jesus really intend to found a new church? (translation, disciples, churches)

[ancient warrior]

Matthew 16:13-20
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, ‘Who do people say that the Son of Man is?’ 14And they said, ‘Some say John the Baptist, but others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’ 15He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ 16Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Messiah,* the Son of the living God.’ 17And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter,* and on this rock* I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’ 20Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was* the Messiah.*

Mark 8:27-30
27 Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way he asked his disciples, ‘Who do people say that I am?’ 28And they answered him, ‘John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.’ 29He asked them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Peter answered him, ‘You are the Messiah.’* 30And he sternly ordered them not to tell anyone about him.

Luke 9:18-21
18 "Once when Jesus* was praying alone, with only the disciples near him, he asked them, ‘Who do the crowds say that I am?’ 19They answered, ‘John the Baptist; but others, Elijah; and still others, that one of the ancient prophets has arisen.’ 20He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Peter answered, ‘The Messiah* of God.’ Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection21 He sternly ordered and commanded them not to tell anyone,"

There are three accounts of "Peter's Confession of Faith." Mark is the source document, and Matthew and Luke copied from him. However, Matthew contains what is most probably an interpolation which does not appear in Mark's account or in Luke's account.

Notes:
(1) John 1 tells us that Simon's brother Andrew, not God, foirst told Simon that Jesus was the messiah and Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter before he became an apostle.

(2) Jesus repeatedly told his followers that he would return within their lifetimes.Hence there wasn't time to found a new Church. Nor was there any need to provide for successors to the apostles.

(3) Acts of the Apostles covers the period of 30 to 64 AD. It report that Jesus' original followers remained a very orthodox sect within mainstream Judaism. There is nothing about founding a new church. In Matthew, Jesus tells his followers to remain faithful to the law.

(4) Is it credible that Jesus had told all the apostles that he was going to found a church but neither Mark, the original writer, nor Luke thought it important enough to report it?

(5) Without the interpolation, Matthew's account is almost a verbatim copy of Mark's original.

Opinions?

[Bideshi]

The church is made up of all the believers in Christ on earth. It is not an organization. The concept of organized churches and denominations is purely a human concept. The Greek word translated most often as "church" in the New Testament actually means "assembly"; a gathering together of believers.

[pcamps]

I believe He intended for us to know Christ in us. This is the power and authority to become a man created in His (Jesus Christ) image.

He is the image of the invisible God...... Col 1:15....the bible is most definitely not.

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Bideshi

The church is made up of all the believers in Christ on earth. It is not an organization. The concept of organized churches and denominations is purely a human concept. The Greek word translated most often as "church" in the New Testament actually means "assembly"; a gathering together of believers.

RESPONSE:

Not quite right. Church is from the Greek word ekklesia, which means "called out." Or those who are called out.

[jojo-50]

The Apostles, first had the blessing of becoming part of the 144,000 ,(Luke 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel). They were to rule over earthly subjects with Jesus, (Rev.5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth).

Even though Jesus told them not to say who he was. They did have to teach about Jesus, why do you think we now know? Many are taught the church will be a actual building. When actually a church IS the congregation of people. So Jesus HAS build his “church”, starting from his Apostles. Thy taught, as they died out, their disciples taught, so on today. Jesus teachings of what his Father wanted us to know ,(John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you).

Many wants to believe ALL spiritual teachings are ALL true, it’s not! Many fail to realize, Just like in Jesus day, and before him. There were ONLY one true teaching, (even though there were many gods, and spiritual teachings), that was from those who worship the God of Israel. Sadly many refuse to believe that STILL hold true today. That truth that’s being taught, are taught by Jesus church.

Many wants to know the truth today, but they‘re receiving it falsely ,(Rom.10:2 -For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge). Still there are many who doesn’t evn seek the truth, they continue believing false ,(Pro.1:28-31 ,Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices). peace

[Bideshi]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

RESPONSE:

Not quite right. Church is from the Greek word ekklesia, which means "called out." Or those who are called out.

I have to disagree:

The translation of the Greek Word "Ekklesia" in the English Bible and its Ramifications.

[Katzpur]

He said He was going to build His Church. Therefore, I assume He did. It's a logical assumption despite arguments to the contrary.

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Bideshi

I have to disagree:

The translation of the Greek Word "Ekklesia" in the English Bible and its Ramifications.

RESPONSE:

Interesting opinion. However, the plain meaning of words is governing.

Mou - Strong's Lexicon number 3450 = I, me, mine own, my

Ekkiesian - Strongs number 1577 = A calling out, assembly, church

So in Matthew's gospel, Jesus is said to be referring to his calling out, assembly, or church.

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

He said He was going to build His Church. Therefore, I assume He did. It's a logical assumption despite arguments to the contrary.

RESPONSE:

Let's go by the evidence, not an assumption. Jesus was executed as an insurrectionist. His immediate followers formed a community in Jerusalem and remained Temple worshipping Hebraic Jews, very observant of the law.

This Jerusalem community was damaged Romans along with Jerusalem in
70 AD, and finally destroyed and the Jersualem Jews transported into exile in 135 AD, again by the Romans.

What remained were the satellite communities outside Israel, eg., Rome, Antioch, etc.

The majority followed Paul's teachings and eventually became Pauline Christianity.

See: The Churches the Apostles Left Behind, By Raymond E. Brown, S.S., Ramsey, N.J., Paulist, 1984. 160 pp. $8.95, $4.95 paper.

[rogead]

Jesus was a Jew who was attempting to reform Judaism. He saw himself as the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy. After he died, a handful of his followers expanded upon that belief. As they dispersed throughout Southern Europe and Asia Minor, the Judaic roots of their beliefs gave way to Christianity.