!!! Noah's ark found !!!!! (Christian, miracle, Christ, religion)

[TheoGeek]

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

I understand why, you seem to view it as magic, perhaps even god magic.

??? Why what? You're the one that said you were scared of science.

I like science. It's cool.

[Asheville Native]

Note to self: Don't mock believers, they don't recognize that they are being mocked.

[Mercury Cougar]

Originally Posted by TheoGeek

non-sequitur

Wrong. You stated that since boats exist and boats float, that the story of Noah's ark is therefore proven to be true. I presented you with the fact that horses exist, and that a horse can fly, therefore the story of Pegasus is proven to be true. It's as good a 'proof' as yours.

The problem with your leap of deduction happens to be that while yes, boats exist and boats generally float, that's not the part of the story that is in question. You haven't accounted for:

1: How all the millions of animals and all their food for months fit into a handmade boat.
2: Where all the water came from that covered the earth -- multiple opinions here, all of them either impossible or an absolute extinction event.
3: Severe population bottleneck both for humans and for all the animal species.
4: Dispersion of the animal population after the flood.
5: Survival of plant life which was under water for months.
6: Survival of water-living creatures, which would die when their salt water or freshwater environment was inundated with water they couldn't survive in.

Those are just off the top of my head. There are a lot more issues with the Noah story. Just because boats exist and float is a laughably juvenile "proof" of your fairy tale.

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Fred314X

After a while, you see the pattern emerging--actually, more like a great tide of molasses, sloshing back and forth. Every so often, there must be an announcement about a Major New Discovery (subtitle: That Proves Biblical Story!!!)

Oh Fred"A Great Tide of Mollasses!" ! I LUV It! May I please use it in the future, your usual copyright royalties applying of course....?

Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar

The Hogwart's Express train route shown in the Harry Potter movies is real. Praise Jesus, this means the entire Harry Potter series of books is true!

Well, of cour.... Whaaayyyyttt a minute! Oh no! You Don't mean... Oh No! OH NOOOOOO
Harry's not reeeeeeeelllll??? I BELIEVED! (Oh, and... sob, whimper....and that means.... neither is Emma....)

Originally Posted by tgnostic

True? true? absolutely every fellowman is both a stranger and acquaintance OR the ordinary either upon recognition. And that is the truth of gifts to give arbitrarily to anyone. Noah will tell us that we're responsible for the gifts the next day.

Where is Noah? I gotz some questionz fur him. The bifurcation of my intensities waxes and wanes, or so I used to demonize...

Originally Posted by TheoGeek

Except a whole bunch of dead animals piled nicely and fossilized rapidly in layers in sedimentary rocks throughout the world...including fossils of sea animals on mountain tops.

And, of course, the fact that there is no small number of stories of floods occurring in cultures around the world.

I will watch this find with cautious hope. We've all seen stories of the ark being found. It would be cool if it was true.

(BTw, there is no "find". This is now VERY old news, just rehashed by the boys @ NAMIâ„¢ to scare up some much-needed vacation trip funding. You really ought to go search the old threads here on C-D about htis silliness! You don't want to appear ill-informed, do you? Or do I have to do ALL the backstory work for you? Huh?)

And so now, back to our story:

Wait a minute here. First you SI's* (*Scientifically Illiterates) first bark out that "Fossils DohnProovNuffin!". But then, you dutifully turn to page 12 and read from Answers in Genesis' "Top Ten List of the Most Stupid Denials of Science Ever Published", and tell us that fossils at the, let's say, 12,000 foot level ASL mean, of course, that they were deposited there only during the Noah's Flood, thus "proving" (to your SI minds) that the waters once rested at that level.

What, long enough for entire colonies of animals and plants to grow, mature, reproduce and then die, falling in record numbers down to the sloshing, washing mountain tops, where, as the flood waters subsided completely, 18 mo later, at a record rate (by (cough...) evaporation, into a supersaturated (snort...) atmosphere... (choke, with milk coming out of my nose...), and with a run-off event that made the annual Amazonian spring Freshet look like a kid's mud-puddle experiment, yet somehow a bunch of months-old long-extinct plants, T-Rex bones and tiny little primordial animals all laid down conveniently up on Everest soz we would later find them?

And all of this conveniently "forgetting" about the gross mixing of the saline (that means "salty", btw) oceanic waters with the world's complete supply of fresh water, would dramatically 9and duhhh! Obviously.... DUHHH!) forever alter the salinity of both previous ecosystems, rendering all life forms dependent on the o=original ecosystems DEAd. Plamnts and animals.

(No? You don't agree? Then do this" make up some nice salty water and use it to water all your beloved house plants for a week or so. Then tell me how it all went.)

(All of this while you "conveniently" and completely ignore that we can and have measured the geological growth [due to known and established tectonic plate movements] of various geological formations and massifs (Massif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) that have produced, for example, the Yellowstone Caldera processions (there have been several eruptions, btw, all in a line marching west, over millions of years!), Mt. St. Helen's, and, Lord of Lords, Mt. Everest itself? Or the now worn-down Canadian Shield?# Or the Hawaiian island chain of ever forming and also subsiding volcanic cones? Didn't all just happen since 1841 yah know!

You mean like that?

Oh, and where your beloved imbedded fossilized species also don't match anything found before or after the flood? Not even in "kind", a word you IDTr** "SIs" are fond of using to re-define "species", when convenient.

BTw, ** IDTrs = Intransigent Dogmo-Theists, as a good catch-all 'descriptive' of your mindset in such matters. And you call us hard-nosed and assumptive?

You mean it happened like all of that? Well, why didn't you say so? Now it all makes sense (snort/cough/splutter...). YUP; it's CLEARLY US who need to step back and take a breath and consider the evidence, for sure. How COULD we have been so obstinate and closed-minded, huh?

But yet, oh no, it doesn't stop there, Oh No Sirreee Bob! Then dem obvious fossils all squiggled their way deeply into the rock layers, which then had instant post-Noah's Flood multiple plate faults & fractures, as well as granitic and volcanic injections ,and so forth. so that this high-elevation fossilization which had to have all occurred since the FLood a mere ≈ 2500 yrs or so ago, is so buried ain hugely convoluted rocks? Yah means likah zhat?

Image Detail for - http://www.tumblr.com/photo/1280/12329588274/1/tumblr_lu51zeSuS61r2iv22

Image Detail for - http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/docs/rst/Sect2/originals/Fig2_29.jpg

(you mean to tell me...(I had NO IDEA!), this all happened in the last few thousand years, along with Noah's Recent Fossil Treats? I'm stunned!

I gotta go talk to my postgrad geology professor right now about how WRONG he's been! Yah want to come along, TheoGeek? I mean, you could add some much needed technical details!

Originally Posted by TheoGeek

Has a "scientific impossibility" every stopped an atheist from believing in things like abiogenesis? Shouldn't you be all over this one?

Having said that, it's quite possible. Not sure what you're basing that statement on.

Abiogenesis, just soz you can have a tiny part of your argument lightly based on fact, is still only an hypothesis. You DO know the diff between an hypothesis nd a theory, right? I thought not.

Anyhow, as functioning scientific researchers with their reputations on the line, the boys and girls who are investigating abiogenesis simply test any and all hypothetical but rational scenarios that they possibly can dream up. To wit: they consider all objections and conundra, and they press on, with multiple, duplicated and peer-reviewed studies, all under the microscopic review of anyone, including yourself if you chose to do so in a rational manner.

Then, alls you gots-tuh do is read a few scientific journals is all. Yep! That's it: just read, digest, review and comment.

Simple enough, huh? And yet, this is an apparently hugely TERRIFYING proposal to all Christians denialists. I've never yet seen any of you bring up a credible, peer-reviewed research paper and then openly discuss it here, point by point.

Why'zhat pray tell?

S we're left with this fact: on "abiogenesis", all work to date points to the basic evolving theory of a "chance" biochemical development, since, after ll, "life per se" is NOT some Grande Latte of Life, upon which your mystical God must breath a soul.

Nope: it's just a grouping of self-attracting molecules that can also "self-replicate" (it's just a reformative process based in molecular interaction, not a soul!) and, through their unique but still simple organization, are able to biochemically "remember" any chance mutations that improve their subsequent survivability or suitability. And what, pray tell, is so danged illogical about that concept?

Especially when we can and do see it in all modern living forms now?

The Brits, as I'm fond of reminding, have, in 2009, succeeded in getting some "kitchen cleaning chemicals" so to speak to assemble themselves into basic amino acids, and then Dr. Venter in San Diego has been able to place them into a lipid balloon and voila,it lit off on it's own!!! As self-sustaining life. LIFE! LIFE FurHevuhn's sake! (PS: No fossil deposits required!)

Originally Posted by tgnostic

But after the boat came to rest, we began building the naive rat race, and speaking in all forms of language, eh!!

Yup: all the diversity, in a mere what? 2500 - 2700 years? All the different races of people, with vastly different genetics, habits, languages; all from Noah and his kin. (BTW, if you try to do this one mathematically, it's not possible. NOT POSSIBLE, unless each mother had about 100 kids. Or, as I said, NOT POSSIBLE. Just thought you might like to chew on that mathematical fact as well...)

Originally Posted by TheoGeek

I know you're scared of science, but please try to understand. Boats can FLOAT!!!!!

Phunny! You're PHUNNY! I may even have to rep-point you for being PHUNNY!

Yup, a nice cruise yacht trip at that! What with the constant down-pouring of rain at a measured 40 inches per hour I think it was... (*someone correct me here please).

And... "floating" is not too likely with well over 15 million different species crowded on board, (probably more like 100 Million in fact...), times about 40 of each to even hope for post-flood survival, especially when they are all dropped off on a strange frozen mountaintop at the 134,000 foot level, with literally no food or drinkable water. ("Oh Puhshawww! Details, details! Such a cynic, rifleman!), and with the suitable life support systems they'd all require. Seems like there'd also be a "Ring of Death" surrounding this so-called Find.

(No! You Bad T-Rex & Brontosuari! There will be Bo Playing Tag in the ecology labs. Now lookitt! You've done gone and knocked over the entire marine ecology mega-tank. Again! There goes that few thousand species I was trying to save, down the drain!")

What monumental tripe this all is, but it is nonetheless quite demonstrative of just how deep the devout fundamentalists will happily entrench themselves.

They mustn't have gotten to the topics of "metaphors" and "fables" in the schools these folks attended in their youth. Plus, science (physics, biology, geology, etc.) class was obviously cancelled there as well...

[pamelaBeurman]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

How is that? How would an ark prove anything other than just that, an ark? Nice try though. Dont you know someone "finds Noahs ark" every decade or so?

Yep!

Then they run the VIN only to find out it wasn't Noah's after all.

Some people just never learn!

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by TheoGeek

Having said that, it's quite possible.

Quite possible huh?. So then, why don't you explain where approximately one billion cubic miles of water -- three times the total volume of water in and on the Earth -- came from and where it went?

Can you explain how four men and their wives (no others were mentioned in Genesis so they would be pure conjecture) perhaps using animal power (more conjecture) gathered two million pounds of lumber, hewed it into timbers, transported it, lifted it into place and fashioned it into a ship larger than any known to have existed – using only the rudimentary tools available in that era?

Can you show that the task is within reason for people, with no known experience, from an era in which even the wheel was unknown, to perform the task of building a ship that exceeds the known structural limitations of wood shipbuilding?

Account for the accumulation of animals to load aboard the ark. Every animal on the Earth must be accounted for – or they would be extinct).

Explain how people with no knowledge of microscopes or microscopic organisms manage to collect, load, feed and care for the millions of species of tiny animals? How did they distinguish between males and females of animals too small to be seen without a microscope?

Demonstrate, with reason, how eight people could sail an impossibly large craft, bail as necessary, feed and care for millions of animals, clean up after all animals – for a year - whilst suffering from every genetic disorder known to man.

Explain how all of the Earth’s plants survived a year of being flooded with salt water and being buried by sedimentation.

Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. Explain where the olive leaf came from. Olive trees and all other plants had been submerged for a year in ocean water.



...and when you've done that.....

Explain how the Egyptians, Chinese and some other civilisations managed to avoid being drowned in the flood.

[PanTerra]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Quite possible huh?. So then, why don't you explain where approximately one billion cubic miles of water -- three times the total volume of water in and on the Earth -- came from and where it went?

Can you explain how four men and their wives (no others were mentioned in Genesis so they would be pure conjecture) perhaps using animal power (more conjecture) gathered two million pounds of lumber, hewed it into timbers, transported it, lifted it into place and fashioned it into a ship larger than any known to have existed – using only the rudimentary tools available in that era?

Can you show that the task is within reason for people, with no known experience, from an era in which even the wheel was unknown, to perform the task of building a ship that exceeds the known structural limitations of wood shipbuilding?

Account for the accumulation of animals to load aboard the ark. Every animal on the Earth must be accounted for – or they would be extinct).

Explain how people with no knowledge of microscopes or microscopic organisms manage to collect, load, feed and care for the millions of species of tiny animals? How did they distinguish between males and females of animals too small to be seen without a microscope?

Demonstrate, with reason, how eight people could sail an impossibly large craft, bail as necessary, feed and care for millions of animals, clean up after all animals – for a year - whilst suffering from every genetic disorder known to man.

Explain how all of the Earth’s plants survived a year of being flooded with salt water and being buried by sedimentation.

Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. Explain where the olive leaf came from. Olive trees and all other plants had been submerged for a year in ocean water.



...and when you've done that.....

Explain how the Egyptians, Chinese and some other civilisations managed to avoid being drowned in the flood.

That's easy, Goddidit.

[TheoGeek]

Originally Posted by Asheville Native

Note to self: Don't mock believers, they don't recognize that they are being mocked.

ad hominem attacks are stupid. You belittle yourself and make yourself look bad when you stoop to that level.

[TheoGeek]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Quite possible huh?. So then, why don't you explain where approximately one billion cubic miles of water -- three times the total volume of water in and on the Earth -- came from and where it went?

The text says the heavens above and up from the ground. So it rained and some natural groundwater opened up in a big way.

Can you explain how four men and their wives (no others were mentioned in Genesis so they would be pure conjecture) perhaps using animal power (more conjecture) gathered two million pounds of lumber, hewed it into timbers, transported it, lifted it into place and fashioned it into a ship larger than any known to have existed – using only the rudimentary tools available in that era?

They had 120 years. And 7:1 mentions his household...no reason to believe that in 120 years his kids hadn't had kids that grew up in it. Also no reason to believe he didn't have some interaction with other people in the area to hire people to bring lumber in.

Can you show that the task is within reason for people, with no known experience, from an era in which even the wheel was unknown, to perform the task of building a ship that exceeds the known structural limitations of wood shipbuilding?

They had instructions from God.

Account for the accumulation of animals to load aboard the ark. Every animal on the Earth must be accounted for – or they would be extinct).

Every animal type had to be accounted for. I have no reason to believe my miniature schnauzer came from the same animal as the gray wolf you'd see at the zoo.

Explain how people with no knowledge of microscopes or microscopic organisms manage to collect, load, feed and care for the millions of species of tiny animals? How did they distinguish between males and females of animals too small to be seen without a microscope?

The same way he got any other wild animal on the ark--God provided for the animals to come to him.

Demonstrate, with reason, how eight people could sail an impossibly large craft, bail as necessary, feed and care for millions of animals, clean up after all animals – for a year - whilst suffering from every genetic disorder known to man.

Not a lot of "sailing" involved. It was basically a barge that floated. And there was no reason to believe there were "millions".
[quote]
Explain how all of the Earth’s plants survived a year of being flooded with salt water and being buried by sedimentation.
[/quoted]

As I mentioned before, the water would have been hugely diluted. Not to mention, we have no way of knowing the salinity of the oceans prior to the flood.

I also have no problem with the idea of plant life surviving underwater. Anyone that has seen a lake flood knows this isn't an issue.

Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. Explain where the olive leaf came from. Olive trees and all other plants had been submerged for a year in ocean water.

It grew.

...and when you've done that.....

Explain how the Egyptians, Chinese and some other civilisations managed to avoid being drowned in the flood.

They are descendants of Ham, Shem and Japheth -- his sons.

[Mercury Cougar]

Originally Posted by TheoGeek

ad hominem attacks are stupid. You belittle yourself and make yourself look bad when you stoop to that level.

We're still waiting for you to show your evidence that the Noah's ark story is true.